Words That Work and Boundaries That Heal: Copywriting Meets Mental Health

In this insightful episode, Nikki sits down with copywriter and coach Stacy Braga to explore the art of copywriting and the importance of setting clear boundaries. From tips on overcoming blank-page syndrome to understanding the psychology of persuasion, Stacy shares her expertise in crafting copy that converts while staying authentic. They also discuss managing expectations, using AI effectively, and the value of personal voice in marketing. Perfect for entrepreneurs, creatives, and anyone ready to elevate their messaging!

Stacy Braga [00:00:00]:
Okay. Hello, I am Stacy Braga. I'm a copywriter and copy coach. I am a teacher by trade. And after being in classrooms for about a decade, I quit. A little impromptu quit, then became a copywriter. And now I am also teaching people about copywriting and how to help them have higher converting copies so they can work with more of their dream clients. Clients.

Nikki [00:00:32]:
That you have helped me sometimes with that, like, getting started. I still have to do it because love getting those first emails started for doing email marketing. And I appreciated that because I was getting nowhere fast. I was like, how do I start this? Hi.

Stacy Braga [00:00:49]:
Yeah, sometimes I think starting can be really hard. And I think that a lot of the times, like when you're trying to write your website or you're trying to write those emails, you aren't sure what to write and then people feel really stuck. So I would like to go into a little bit about what you need to know before you even start writing. What are some of the ideas that you need to think about? And so I would say first, starting with your ideal client and so knowing exactly who you're talking to and not so much on the, like, demographic level. Like, yes, you might want to know, like, age and gender and occupation or location if you're an in person, which that would be really important. But you also want to get to know them, like, as humans. So, like, one of the trends in the market right now is people are buying based on their values. And so it might be important for you to know what are the values of your dream clients and what are my values? And do they line up and not necessarily saying, oh, like, put your values up on your website, but like, how do you embody those values and how do you show up and use those values? Because that's going to be something that's important to ideal clients.

Stacy Braga [00:02:01]:
And so thinking about them more on a human level and even just like thinking about what do they do on a typical day. Because if there are Starbucks people and they go to Starbucks every day, that's something that you can, like tweak and put into your copy or put into your email, hey, before you go, buy that third Starbucks of the day. And just like, little things like that will make you more relatable. So part of what you need to do is get to know your dream clients super, super well. And what you want to do after you kind of have an idea of who they are is really start to think about how they relate to your offer. And so thinking about one, what are the problems that they're actually facing, right? So what's going on in their life? Why do those problems even matter? So yes, they could keep going on with their life and living with the same problems, but why should they take action, right? So what, what is the consequence of waiting another six months or another year before you take action? And like, you know, there are problems that you and I live with every single day and you're just like, I'll deal with that later. And you never actually get around to it. And so part of your messaging inside your copy is building that urgency of really talking about, like, this is now and this is why now and not this is why a year from now.

Stacy Braga [00:03:24]:
So I would say those two things are really important and then really making sure you understand what are their core desires. So what is it that they actually want in life? And not just like, you know, random, but like related to your offer, right? What do they want in life? And then that's when, after you've talked about the problems, why they matter, and what they want in life, that's where you can talk about your offer. Offer and talk about, hey, like, I understand what you're going through, I understand why it matters, I understand where you want to go. And I'm the person that's going to help you get from point A to point B. And talking about how your offer is going to help them get make that transformation. And then the other piece is just like, if you are a personal brand, like showcasing your own story, because that really builds trust and people start to see you as a human. And so it's almost like you have this kind of this relationship, right? Even if you've never actually had a conversation, they still get to know you through your copy. And they still say like, okay, I can trust this person.

Stacy Braga [00:04:32]:
Because they feel validated as they read it. And they feel like, okay, I know what I'm going through, they know what I'm going through and they get it. So this is somebody that I can trust to help me solve my problem.

Nikki [00:04:47]:
Okay? So when I start out a project, I use AI because I can't stare at a blank page. If I stare at a blank page, I'm never going to get anywhere because my brain's like, oh, yeah, that's a blank page. I got nothing for you. So I start with AI and I tell it kind of what I want to do and it'll start me off. But you know, plagiarism is the thing. For me, at least I have that built up in my head so much from schooling, right? Like, just Copy paste what anybody says. You have to like actually digest it and transform it into something that's your own. Is that something that you're seeing more of where people are just copying AI?

Stacy Braga [00:05:33]:
I think what I see is like people trying to repurpose with AI, but sometimes if your AI isn't trained well, you lose your voice. And so that's like another thing that's going to make you unique out of like everybody who does the same thing as you is like your voice and what you do. And so I think sometimes AI will kind of like create this like really generic sounding copy. What I actually teach my clients to do is I think AI is a great brainstorming tool, right? And I think that you can ask AI about what are the problems my dream clients are experiencing, what is the transformation that they want and brainstorm in that way. But what I actually give to my clients are like frameworks so that they can start to like, plug and play of like, okay, so say you're writing a sales page. You're going to start with a headline, then the problem, then the agitation, why the problem matters, then the solution. Then you'll talk about the offer and you. And so just giving them those frameworks.

Stacy Braga [00:06:35]:
So it's like it doesn't really matter what you're writing about. You understand the structure. And the other piece is that you're not getting stuck on a blank page because you're like, okay, if you have all of this messaging before you start writing, you already know the problems, the agitation, solution. Then once you go right, it's not really like you can go into ChatGPT and say like, hey, I'm going to brainstorm, like, make this into a sales page and just say like, here's all the problems, here's why they matter, here's what they want. And then say like, make this into, you know, use the framework problem education solution and make this into a page and play with it that way. And then you can also play with like, you know, using the same tone of voice and the same style that I just am typing in right now. Like, recreate this in a way that makes sense. And so for me, like, I use AI a lot for brain dumping and brainstorming and organizing my thoughts and to like get rid of that blank page syndrome, because it happens to copywriters too, where you're like.

Stacy Braga [00:07:37]:
And so I try to like, actually one of the things that I do because I always feel very overwhelmed at the beginning of projects. Like today's the 18th and I have like 20 something emails to write before the end of the month. And yesterday I was like, oh, my goodness, how am I going to finish all this client work and my own stuff too, Right? And I'm feeling really overwhelmed. And so I actually just, like, sat down and created a plan. Like, this is what each email is going to be, and this is what each email is going to focus on. And then I left it alone. And like, now I'm like, okay, next day I'm going to sit down and I'm going to actually focus on this. But I already know what's going to happen, what's what I'm going to say, what the focus of each email is.

Stacy Braga [00:08:16]:
And so it really becomes a lot easier when you, like, have your message and have your purpose before you start writing, because it takes out that overwhelm and it takes out that feeling stuck. And you can just. You can just focus because it's really. It really is. Like, the planning and executing is two different skill sets.

Nikki [00:08:37]:
Yeah. I can get things done and I can plan things, but I can't do both at the same time.

Stacy Braga [00:08:45]:
Yeah, I think that's like, what's missing, right, when a lot of people sit down to write their website or to write their emails is they're just like, okay, like, let me write this email. But there's no plan in the background. And so that's what makes it really hard. Because if you don't have, like, the strategy behind it, if you don't understand these are the things that my customer has to hear before they're able to make a decision. Then you're sitting there like, what am I going to say? I don't know what to say. And it's like, really? You just need a system that you can use on repeat and do it over and over and over again and collect data and then tweak it and do it. Just keep going in a cycle.

Nikki [00:09:22]:
Okay, when you teach this, because I know that you teach this to people. Right. You're not just doing the work. Well, I know you do it for some people, but you're teaching this to people so that they can move forward. How do you approach. So I can write. Right. Like, don't really feel enjoyment in it, but I can write and I have written plenty of things.

Nikki [00:09:48]:
Right. But how do you handle those people who come to you without the money for you to do everything for them, but yet they're not really writers. They can't. There are those people who don't have the vocabulary skills or. I am not calling people stupid. That's not what I mean, but, like, they're just not there. They can't put their ideas to the page. How do you teach somebody from that point?

Stacy Braga [00:10:16]:
Yeah, so my membership is called Copy Classroom, and it's all about learning how to write copy. And I think that where I even have people who are really, really great writers, I even had somebody earlier this year who was an editor in there. And the thing about it is that copywriting is actually a little bit different than like, creative writing or, you know, different types of writing. It has, like, its own technical skill set behind it. Because really what you're doing with copywriting is you're persuading. And so you want to know a little bit about how people make decisions and how people's brains work in order to, you know, really the purpose is, are people good fits for my offer and how can I get them inside if they are a good fit? And so helping people make those decisions and building the urgency inside of them so they are motivated and empowered to make those decisions. And so there is a lot of, like, technical stuff behind copywriting, but then there's also the creative writing side where you're embedding the personality and all of that stuff. So it is definitely a skill set.

Stacy Braga [00:11:25]:
It's funny because, like, I have clients who are like, PhDs and I'm like, your people are not reading a novel or an essay. Like, your people are probably reading your email on the toilet. So you want to make it as easy as possible. Like, think about the stuff that you're trying to read on the toilet. Like, read that. And so really bringing it down, right? So bringing it down to like a fifth grade level instead of a college level. Even if you are really, really educated, and even if your clients are really educated, it doesn't mean that they want to, like, read these really dense, like, high vocabulary paragraphs. So that is some of the things that I talk about with my clients, but what I actually do in terms of, like, supporting.

Stacy Braga [00:12:08]:
So if you don't know me, I actually have several degrees. One of them is in educational leadership. So I was on track to becoming a principal before I left the school system. And one of the things that I am an expert in is really facilitating adult learning. And so when it comes to my membership, there's different levels of support. And so one of the things is I do give people swipe files so that they know the structure of a sales page or the structure of an email sequence or whatever so that they are not feeling stuck. And they kind of know, okay, like, this is where I can get started. And this is kind of like the structure that's going to like, have some buyer psychology behind it and really, like, help inform your people.

Stacy Braga [00:12:57]:
Help inform, educate, persuade your people. And so I start with the swipe files for people who really don't have that framework and aren't really sure about where to start. I also do a lot of copy reviews. And so people will write something and then, you know, they submit it to me. And I do a lot of, like, making suggestions and adding in sentences and stuff like that. And it's really fun because as I get to know them through their copywriting, and I help them, like, build their voice, and it's cool to see, like, all the progress they make over, like, six months. And they really start to get to feel more confident in how they're representing themselves through their copywriting. And then they start to make more sales, which is the goal.

Stacy Braga [00:13:40]:
Right. And they start to sign more clients that they really like working with. So it's a really cool transformation to watch and be a part of. And then the other piece is, I have office hours. So if people are like, I have the swipe files, I got the copy review, but I need help creating a strategy for the next two months, or I don't understand, like, why this isn't working, or how do I set up my funnel. That's the kind of stuff that I talk about in office hours. So there's different levels of support. Some people just use the copy reviews.

Stacy Braga [00:14:14]:
Some people come to every single office hours. It really is kind of built in a way that you can kind of do what's going to work for you, and then we'll see where it goes. I have some fun ideas for the future, but I think as I get to know the people inside and as I support them, that's kind of where I tweak and have some fun with it. Like, one of the things that I noticed as I launched the membership in the first year was that people were really struggling with that messaging piece. And so I actually created a separate program that was all about, how do you even, like, create the messaging? Because that's foundational for writing copy. And so it's really about, like, just seeing where people are and how I can best support them so that they can reach their goals. And it's fun. I get to do copywriting, which I really like, and I get to, you know, do teaching, which I really like.

Stacy Braga [00:15:03]:
And it's a nice way to combine both of my professional interests, areas of expertise.

Nikki [00:15:12]:
I enjoyed My time in copy classroom. And as soon as I can, I would be back because that was hugely beneficial when we went over the email sequence, because, like I said, I looked at that blank page and just kind of went, nope, got none. I don't like saying, nope, got none, because, like, I know what I have to do. And I can see, here's the big thing for me. I can help my clients all day long get through their writer's blocks. I can help them get through their things that they need to do with their stuff. Right? I can do all of that. I'm having trouble picking my target market.

Nikki [00:15:52]:
I am having trouble, you know, like, I was having trouble figuring out what I need to say in emails for my stuff because, you know, I have this podcast now, and when you have a podcast, you have crap to do. And I'm sitting here going, I can do this for everybody else. Why can't I do this for myself?

Stacy Braga [00:16:12]:
And it's hard. Like, I think I feel the same way, and this is why I have a coach, is because I am so close to the copy in my own business that I start to overthink it. And I'm like, I don't know, like, if this is good or not. And, like. And even if it's, like, the same exact process as what I'm doing for a client, like, it still feels harder in my own stuff. And so, like, that is something that I do continually practice, is getting feedback from other people who are copywriting experts just to, like, push and challenge myself. But I think it's a really common problem of, like, struggling to write your own things. And I think one of the things that I see really often is I work with so many people who are really good at what they do, but they feel like they're bragging when they show up, and they say, like, hey, like, this is what I do.

Stacy Braga [00:17:02]:
And they feel uncomfortable, right? Putting themselves in the spotlight and saying, hey. And it's like, you have to reframe it for yourself. You have to remember you're not actually putting yourself in the spotlight. You're actually highlighting your dream clients. You're actually putting them in the spotlight because you're saying, hey, these are the problems that you're having. This is what you want, and this is how I'm going to help you. And so really just like, yes, technically, you're in the spotlight, but, like, at the same time, the story is not about you. The story is about your clients.

Stacy Braga [00:17:32]:
And so reframing that so, like, you don't have to, like, I don't know. You're not bragging. You're still being humble. You're actually just serving people. You're actually just helping them. And so I think that's something that people really struggle with when they're starting to build a brand and really starting to, like, market themselves online.

Nikki [00:17:54]:
Yeah. And like I said, I can help other people do it. I can. You know, they write the email. Usually. I'm not the one who starts off writing other people's stuff because I don't. I can't stare at a blank page. I really just can't.

Nikki [00:18:09]:
And so they'll do their thing, and I can look at it and go, you sound like a tin can. Your personality is way better than that. I know you, like, can we not sound like a tin can? And, like, I can help them to realize, oh, yeah, I should do that. But I'm not a copy person, so my opinions on things is more. Like I said, you're sound. That doesn't sound like you. What did you do? You. You sound hollow.

Nikki [00:18:37]:
Right? Remember that thing, the little dance that the Tin man does in the wizard of Oz where you can hear he has straight up hollow. I. I get that. I. When I read stuff sometimes, and I do it, like, I can tell when it's AI a lot of the times, not every time because, you know, I'm not like Dr. Seuss or something, but because the writing sounds hollow and empty, like, hi, I'm excited to see you. But it's like, here you are.

Stacy Braga [00:19:07]:
Exactly. And I think that the other piece is, like, people want to sound, like, so professional because they're like, well, I'm a business, and I want to come off as, like, an expert. And it's like, you can still be an expert, and you can still be professional and be funny in your content or show your personality. Show. Exactly. And I'm not saying, like, when I say showing your personality, if you have a personal brand, I'm not saying you have to show who your family is and all of these things, but what are parts of yourself that you can share with your audience, even if it is just related to working? I think just being okay with, like, what? Okay. I think one exercise that can actually really help people, like, with copywriting in their own voice, is to actually just, like, record yourself saying what you want to say. And instead of, like, trying to be very professional, like, literally just record a voice note about, like, hey, I'm sending this email because I want to tell you about this.

Stacy Braga [00:20:08]:
And here's what's included and here's why. I think it's a great thing for you. And listen back to yourself and really notice, like, if I feel like it's so weird. It's like when you, like, do, like, a walking meditation, and it's like, notice your arms, and all of a sudden your arms feel really weird because you're like, do I always walk like this? Like, my arms, they feel weird because you never really notice it. And so when you're doing the same thing with your voice and you listen in, it, like, sounds kind of weird. And you're like, oh, is this how I always talk? But are there phrases that you always use that you can embed? Like, are there jokes that you use? How can you make your copy the same as the way that you speak? Like, maybe you italicize something, or you use capital letters and just play around with it so that when people are reading, they're reading in the same way that you're intending them to read it, you know? And then the other thing that helps is after you've written, is read it out loud. How does it sound? Does it sound like you? Does it sounds boring? Does it sound perfect? Like, too professional? Does it sound like it could be written by any other person who does what you do? Or does it sound like, okay, this is authentically you. This is something that I do.

Stacy Braga [00:21:22]:
And that's really. Those are two things that you can do to really hone in on, like, your authentic voice and to not not sound like chat GPT wrote your stuff.

Nikki [00:21:32]:
6 Night on the Journey A I In some places, you know, you are doing a journey. You're taking somebody from point A to point D, right? And so there's a journey. But if you start saying the journey is great, the path is wonderful, you know, all of those adjectives for it, it kind of turns into Chat GPT even without you realizing it. Because it's exactly what Chat GPT would do. And everybody is so sick and tired of seeing the journey and the path and the, you know, all that. Because if you blink, Chat GPT will tell you that.

Stacy Braga [00:22:09]:
And that's where knowing your ideal client is so important, right? Bringing us back to the beginning, because you need to be more specific. So it's not just wonderful. What is wonderful about it? Like, actually painting a picture for people and using these, like, visuals of, like, that's why you want to think about what is their day like, because what are the visuals? What's the actual moment when they realize they're struggling with something, right? And what's the Actual moment that. That shows up in their life. Maybe, like, for you, it's. I don't know, maybe they're staring at their to do list and they literally just shut down their laptop because they're like, I don't even. It's too much. Like, I can't handle it.

Stacy Braga [00:22:50]:
Right? Like, so what is it? What is that exact moment that you can write about? And so instead of just saying, like, yeah, this sucks, like, paint a picture instead of saying, this is what you want in your life, what is it actually going to look like when they solve their problem? So what if you could look at your to do list and know exactly where to focus for today and you're not stressed and you're not working through lunch and really painting a picture of all of those things? Like, that's really what's going to make your messaging really clear, and it's really what's going to make you stand out.

Nikki [00:23:25]:
To get people to understand that you are an awesome person. What is your favorite story that you tell people?

Stacy Braga [00:23:36]:
Oh, that's an interesting question. I think probably the story I tell most often is, like, quitting teaching, like, burning out from teaching and becoming a copywriter. Because I found an ad that was like, copywriting is a great career for former teachers. And I don't know what my favorite story is. I think, ooh. I think what story is resonating with me the most right now is, I just started. I just launched my podcast literally six months ago. Was talking to my coach, and I was like, I don't know.

Stacy Braga [00:24:11]:
I don't want to start a podcast. I have nothing to say. I can't talk for that long. And she just gave me this look that was like, Stacy, like, come on. But, like, in my head, I really was like, I can't do it. And then I started, like, thinking about it, and I'm like, maybe I can do it. And I ended up doing an audio summit over the summer, and I was like, let me test the waters with this audio summit. And let me see.

Stacy Braga [00:24:37]:
I don't know if I'm going to like podcasting. I don't know. It's going to be so weird to be sitting in a room by myself and be talking into my microphone and putting it out for people to listen to. It's going to be super awkward. But I had so much fun doing the audio summit, and I had all of my copy classroom clients come on, and it was, like, a great opportunity to get to know people and to also just, like, talk about things that are going on and what people struggle with and some of the common issues that I see. And so that was kind of like the birth of my podcast. But it's just, like, funny to me, like, that story that I've just kind of recently started telling, because it really was like a mindset game where I really thought I couldn't do it. I really was like, I'm so introverted.

Stacy Braga [00:25:24]:
I don't really, like, you know, I can't really talk for that long. But, like, I actually do have a lot to say. And once you get to know me, I never shut up. And so I'm like, how do I put that into a podcast? And so I. That is probably my proud moment of 2024 is actually getting that up and running off the ground.

Nikki [00:25:45]:
So I, like I said, I have therapists, I have moved, and I've had different therapists, right? And the way. The way I say things, the way I tell the story and then get to my point. And this is how. How this is connected to this thing. They were like, you should write a book. And more than one therapist, tell me, you should write a book. And I was like, well, that's too much work. I don't want to do that.

Nikki [00:26:11]:
So I was like, I totally dismissed it. And then in March, I was on a podcast, my very first podcast had ever been on, and I was just like, huh, I could do this. Which, I have to tell you, writing a book would probably have been less work. Perfectly honest.

Stacy Braga [00:26:35]:
Writing a book is on my bucket list. I'm not sure, like, what it's going to be about. I just know at some point in my life, I have two thoughts where, like, one, I'm like, I really want to write a memoir or, like, a series of memoirs, I'm not sure, and then other pieces. But I could also write, like, a book about education or a book about business. I'm like, where do I want to go with this? So it's on my.

Nikki [00:26:57]:
Write the next book. People cry over in college about copywriting. I have actually had. So I went to Brian and Stratton College in Syracuse, New York. It's kind. It's kind of one of those colleges that you go to for two years and you just get your associates. You can't get. I don't think you can get a bachelor's there, or you couldn't at the time I went there, it was only the two year, but.

Nikki [00:27:27]:
But there's that other school. What was it they ended up closing because they were actually a scam with it. And all that stuff. I can't remember the name of the school, so I had the choice to go to Brian or Stratton or to them. And I went to Brian and Stratton. And I'm so glad I did because they are still a college where the other one isn't anymore because they were just handing people, you know, Scott, one of the textbooks that they had. It totally had personality. I cannot remember what course it was for because I'm quite sure it wasn't for the it side of things.

Nikki [00:28:00]:
Right. It was probably a general ed book, but it had personality to it. It wasn't the stuffy book, so I didn't mind reading it as much. And I think that you could come up with a book that had some personality to it that people would be like, oh, yeah, I have to study for copy editing, but I'll be fine.

Stacy Braga [00:28:19]:
A lot of, like, education textbooks are like that too. Where it's like a lot of what they do is show it through storytelling and like, how does it actually work? So I don't know. Maybe. It's definitely not something I have capacity for right now because I'm still like, we're still in startup phase. We're growing, setting a lot of stuff up. I'm streamlining a lot of stuff. Now that I'm about to hit year three, I'm like, okay, this is what's working. This is what I want to keep, and this is what I really want to automate, streamline, make it super easy for myself.

Stacy Braga [00:28:51]:
I have systems now versus, like, once that's all up and running, then I think that I can kind of step back a little bit, hire some more people and then really focus on writing a book. But that's.

Nikki [00:29:04]:
So to that end, I have a thing that I'm doing. It's only going to be free for a little bit because I want to, you know, really get into do and. And do a cup. A bunch of them before I start charging people for them. But I'm going to. I'm starting to do audits so that I can help people make sure that the systems and processes they have in place are what they need and that the software they're using is actually what is fitting them and will fit them into the future. So, like, yeah, it's fitting today, but it's a tight squeeze. You're going to have to change something in the next like 10 minutes in order to.

Nikki [00:29:50]:
You can't bring another person into your software. Yeah, you're stuck at the level you're at. So I want and then help them if there are systems that would be a better fit or something like that, not only find those better fits, but to actually get them all trained on how to use it, get everything transferred to it, and then say, there you go.

Stacy Braga [00:30:13]:
Yeah. And that's something that's so valuable. Like, just talking about the membership. I originally launched the membership and I had it as a combo of ThriveCart and Slack, where, like, all of the courses and modules and stuff were inside thrivecart. And then the community was in Slack. But then it was getting. As it started growing, it was getting super complicated for me to stay on top of everything and for me to keep track of, like, whose subscription was active and do they still have Slack access? And I was like, I could set up, like, a bunch of zaps and try to figure this out. And then I was like, or I can just move to a community platform.

Stacy Braga [00:30:51]:
And so that was really where I made the decision to move into Circle, which, like, yes, it's more expensive, but it was at the point where I had enough people inside that it would cover the cost. And it just made my life so much easier. And I actually did have somebody come in and move everything from Thrive Cart to Circle. And it just, like, I also think that it brought another level of, like, authority and legitimacy to the membership because everything's in one place and everything is streamlined. But it's one of those things where I wasn't going to pay the $99 a month when I first started the membership, because I didn't even know if anybody was going to join it. Right. And so your systems are going to evolve and change, like, as you grow. And so I think that's a really valuable, really valuable service.

Nikki [00:31:37]:
Yes, I think it is. And the people that know me are like, yeah, you're going to become Ms. Tech. And I'm like, great, let's take my last name off of everything. It will be Nikki Tech. That's it.

Stacy Braga [00:31:50]:
Love it.

Nikki [00:31:53]:
I live in Arkansas now and I live in the same area as where the stupid first store for Walmart is. So on the regular, I get people who ask me, are you one of those? No. Do you think I would be doing half of the crap I'm doing if I had a gajillion dollars in the bank? I mean, I might still want to be helping people, but it wouldn't be at the level that I'm helping people now.

Stacy Braga [00:32:24]:
Very fair.

Nikki [00:32:27]:
Let's be fair. I had money, this would be a different type of thing. Right. Or they asked me if I'M John Boy. Where's John Boy? And I'm like, dude, again, if I was in that situation, I'd be on a mountain somewhere, and I still wouldn't have the tech I have. Technically, I guess I am on a mountain, but since I can't see the mountain, I see Utah. Everybody's like, utah has mountains. And I see pictures of Utah, and I'm like, yes, you can see there.

Nikki [00:33:00]:
You look out the window, right? I don't go up a mountain. Like in Tennessee. I had to go up a mountain to get somewhere. Right here, everybody. We're on a mountain. No, no, we're not. A mountain means you have to go up. We.

Nikki [00:33:17]:
There's no up. You have golf courses here. You can't have golf courses on a mountain.

Stacy Braga [00:33:23]:
I've never been to Arkansas.

Nikki [00:33:24]:
They have a lot of golf. Look, I am all for you, doing you, but we went past a apartment building, and the apartment building's name is Topgolf or something. A golf course type name, dude. It had a putting green in the front yard so people could practice their putting. And apparently I haven't seen it, but there's some big, huge lake here because there is boats everywhere. And I'm just like, what the. You're a landlocked state. Where are these boats coming from?

Stacy Braga [00:34:03]:
Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, we have mountains here, but not really. Like, you have to go up to, like, New Hampshire, Maine.

Nikki [00:34:12]:
Where are you again?

Stacy Braga [00:34:14]:
Massachusetts. Oh, nice. You're wearing a Boston hockey shirt.

Nikki [00:34:22]:
I did not do this on purpose. I completely forgot that you were in Massachusetts. So a couple, I think about a month ago, I told you that I was going to give your information to my sister so that she could contact you. I don't know if she has or not yet. That's on her, not me. But she's in Massachusetts.

Stacy Braga [00:34:40]:
Oh, cool. Okay.

Nikki [00:34:42]:
She's over by Boston somewhere, I think. We used to live in Worcester when I was there.

Stacy Braga [00:34:46]:
Oh, I didn't know you lived here.

Nikki [00:34:49]:
Yeah. Okay. So I left Massachusetts literally when I was 12.

Stacy Braga [00:34:54]:
Okay.

Nikki [00:34:54]:
When I was 23, I was headed to the bar with some friends, right? We were all at this friend's house. We're about to walk out the door. It's cold outside. And I happened to notice that her scarf was on a chair. Tell me why Boston came out of my mouth. I was like, don't forget your scarf. And everybody turned around and looked at me.

Stacy Braga [00:35:20]:
It's funny because it doesn't come out all the time, but I definitely. My friends from other parts of the country will Call me out on it sometimes. I know I say wicked. I say wicked. I don't know, I don't hear the Boston accent in me, but I think that once in a while there'll be certain words that come out and I'm just like, oh.

Nikki [00:35:44]:
Yeah, I said that, five of us. And they all turned to just stare at me and I'm like, what? They're like, you hear what you just said? Yeah, I said, go get your scarf. And I said it correctly the second time and they were like, no, that's not what you said. When it comes to mental health these days, everybody hears about boundaries. Oh, I set a boundary and somebody crossed it and now I have consequences, right? I'm putting them on a 24 hour information holder. 24 hours I think is short. But whatever their, you know, punishment is for going over the boundary, some people say I have a boundary that you don't wear shoes in my house. That's not a boundary, that's a rule.

Nikki [00:36:39]:
So I'm going to define them. So first, rules are specific directives that dictate what is and isn't allowed. They are often imposed by someone to control or regulate behavior. So you want somebody to not wear shoes in your house, so you tell them or you put up a sign and you have something there for them to sit on, hopefully so that they can take their shoes off and they don't come in your house without with their shoes on. Now, boundaries are personal limits you set to protect your well being. They define what you are comfortable with in interactions and relationships. So me, don't hug me, don't touch me. If I can get away with not shaking your hand, I'm going to get away with not touching your hand, right? I'm just going to wave like, hi, how are you not shaking that hand? Because that's a boundary for me.

Nikki [00:37:32]:
I don't like being touched. I don't want people grabbing me. I don't like it. Plus I have autoimmune problems. If you're even the slightest bit sick and you're all over me, I'm going to be sick now for the next two to three months. Thinks a lot, so let's not do that. When you set up rules, you are usually trying to maintain order and safety. You are trying to.

Nikki [00:38:00]:
Nobody's allowed to come over to my house without calling on the phone first. I want to know why you want to come see me. Don't knock on my door. Text me when you get here and I'll go open the door. I hate it. When people knock. Because for some reason, everybody knocks like they're a cop nowadays, and I don't need that pressure on my. My brain.

Nikki [00:38:24]:
Right? So just text me, let me know you're here. I'll come open the door. And it's fine. I have that set like that because that tells me, hey, this is somebody who's important to me here. And I don't want to ignore the knock on the door that I think is the mailman, and I don't care. Right? So that is a rule, and it's for my safety. If I have a lot of people knocking on the door during the day when I'm working or during a podcast, there's a problem. So text me.

Nikki [00:38:57]:
I could tell the person I'm on a podcast with, I'm so sorry. Somebody just got here. I have to go answer the door. I'll be right back. Otherwise, I'm ignoring that door because I'm not planning on anything happening today. If my meds are getting delivered, I know that in advance. I'm going to tell the person I'm in the podcast with, I am expecting to get meds today. I might have to run to the door.

Nikki [00:39:18]:
Right? But it's not going to be, oh, crap. What? No, I'm not just going to answer the door for any Tom, Dick, or Harry while I am busy with things if I'm on the phone or on a podcast or on a business zoom call. Right. So that's why I have that boundary, that not boundary, that rule for my people. And I don't have a lot of people, so this does not happen often.

Stacy Braga [00:39:47]:
Yeah, I'm very similar to you where I do not answer the door. I live on the third floor. I don't have a way. I don't have, like, a buzzer system that I can see who's at the door. And so I'm not going to buzz people in if I don't know who they are. Like, if I really want to know, I would walk downstairs and go see. But, like, I don't know. It's just like canvassers and like, you don't know who it is.

Stacy Braga [00:40:11]:
I don't want to let them into the building. So I definitely feel you on that one. But I'm also thinking about one of the things that I used to teach in my first grade curriculum was thinking about rules. And, like, why do we have rules? And so we talked about this idea of, like, right, rules are for safety and rules are for, like, keeping everybody safe. But then also this idea of, like, when do you actually change the rules? Like, when a rule doesn't make. When. What do you do when a rule doesn't make sense? And how do you go about changing that? So you're bringing me back to my teaching days.

Nikki [00:40:46]:
So for me, I only have rule. I have very little rules, right? I have the one boundary, don't touch me. Pretty big rule for some people. And, like, there are people who are extremely touchy. You know what I mean? You know those people who, like, as soon as they see you, They've hugged you 17 times in three minutes and just all up in your personal space because they love you, and that's their way of showing it. The opposite of showing love to me, that is showing me that you're not listening to me. But for some people, they appreciate that. One of the things that I do and I remind people, like, I'll say something at church, right? Because church is for sure full of those people who are gonna hug you.

Nikki [00:41:33]:
And so every once in a while, I'm like, yeah, remember me. I'm the person that you're not allowed to touch kind of a thing. And then I'll get somebody who comes up to me and talks to me afterward, and they're like, I am so glad that you understand your boundaries and that you know you, right? But the whole time, I can see the struggle clear as day on their face because they want to hug me. They want to touch me. They just. They're just not. Because they just heard me say that I don't like that, you know? And there are some people who will still. I don't.

Nikki [00:42:07]:
I did. I don't. I want to resp. And then they, like, touch me with, like, their finger. Because, like, the need to touch is, like, so big. And I excuse that. Like, if you are struggling that hard that I can see it on your face, and, like, you're trying. Like, you're doing the whole, I don't want to, but I have to thing.

Nikki [00:42:30]:
Like, I'm not gonna say anything. I'm probably laughing. And you're fine to just do a little tap, and you're fine. But that's because I can see the struggle. And I understand that, right? Because different people are different. And I also feel respected because they are fighting themselves that hard not to touch me, where somebody else who just didn't care or didn't feel like the rule. The boundary applied to them, they would just grab me and not on purpose. I almost smacked somebody across the face one time because they came up behind me and, like, started Rubbing my shoulder.

Stacy Braga [00:43:16]:
That's definitely something like, I. You know, we talk a lot about with my niece, who just turned three, but asking permission to give a hug and being okay when she says no. Right? So, okay, she doesn't want to hug. Like, do you want a high five instead? And then just, like, being okay with her answer and modeling those boundaries for her so that she, like, knows that as she grows up, she has the autonomy. She doesn't have to say yes. When people want to give her a hug. She can choose if she wants to give a hug or not.

Nikki [00:43:45]:
My sister's doing the same thing with her son. They ask him, do you want a hug? You know, can I have a hug? And if he says no, then, okay, not a problem. And being okay with that, because some people are just like, you're my kid. You have to. You know? I hated going to family reunions when I was growing up because my mom was one of those parents who was like, that's your uncle. Well, I have met now a grand total of three times in 10 years because of these reunions. I don't know him. Go hug him and tell him you love him.

Nikki [00:44:26]:
No, but it's.

Stacy Braga [00:44:28]:
Yeah, go ahead.

Nikki [00:44:28]:
It is very important for me, anyway, to make sure that I am safe. So. Oh, yeah, that's another rule I have. My front door is always locked. I found out one day that it wasn't locked because the postman decided that him knocking and ringing the doorbell. The re. You know, the reaction to it wasn't happening fast enough because I was on the phone with a customer, and he opened the front door and was like, hello. No, no, not appropriate.

Nikki [00:45:09]:
Not ever happening again. That door, like, I check it now. I'll go over there and make sure I can't open the door, because now that. Why would you even attempt that? Why would you think that that is appropriate to even attempt? What the crap is wrong with you? You could have got shot. Not that I have a gun.

Stacy Braga [00:45:37]:
But.

Nikki [00:45:37]:
Wouldn'T have been me, like, who does that? So I had to put that in. But, like, I've always been kind of anal about keeping doors closed. I live with other people, though, and somebody just forgot to lock the door when they came back in from checking the mail or whatever. We don't. We barely use that door. It's used to take packages. We go out through the garage where the cars are, you know, so those kinds of things. Yes.

Nikki [00:46:09]:
So because of my traumas and the things that I've been through, I need. I have this huge need to feel Safe. So I have rules and boundaries set into place so that I can feel safe. I don't feel safe when people. Even if I kind of know them, like, I've seen their face before because I've seen them at church. You know, that kind of a relationship, we all know. I don't really know that person. I've never, like, interacted with that person.

Nikki [00:46:42]:
I don't want that person hugging me. Like, I don't. For me, that is. No. My agency has been trampled on enough that it's time for me to stand up and say, this isn't happening anymore. And a lot of people respect it. Some people are like, oh, she doesn't like to be touched. I shouldn't talk to her.

Nikki [00:47:05]:
Which is the stupidest. How did you get that from A? Like, how did you get to Q? Right? So I get that every once in a while, somebody will say, you know, you're putting up a wall between you and everybody because you don't want to be touched. That sounds more like a. Their problem than a me problem. Because if them not being able to touch me whenever they feel like it is making them feel like they can't talk to me, how safe am I at church? Right? I know I'm safe in the place I'm at. I'm not saying that I'm unsafe or that I feel unsafe, but I do feel like there is a problem with a lot of people. Old, young. It doesn't matter where they feel like if they want to do something, they should be allowed to do it, right? No.

Nikki [00:48:09]:
If I tell you no, no means no. You need to not do it. If I look reluctant when I say yes, it's because I feel pressured into it. And you should still probably not do it. Because, like, I'm. If I'm visibly uncomfortable and somebody's going, yeah, you really should help. You know, you should do that. And then you're going, yeah, I'm gonna do that.

Nikki [00:48:34]:
And, like, no, don't do that, because that can be. You know, that's a fortune consent situation where I didn't feel like I could say no, so I very reluctantly said yes. And then you still did it anyway, because you weren't listening. Like, you weren't paying attention. When we have rules and boundaries set in place, again, they're not there to keep people out. They're there to teach people how to re. To interact with you so that you both have a safe conversation. Right? Or relationship, depending on, you know, where your boundaries and rules lie.

Nikki [00:49:19]:
So, again, rules provide structure and Safety, especially in environments like your workplace, like you can't go to work and take your bra off. There's rules against that. It's called being dressed appropriately, right?

Stacy Braga [00:49:35]:
Unless you work from home, in which case you never have to wear a bra.

Nikki [00:49:41]:
Or there's were schools, you know, when you're at school, do you remember how many rules there were like drove you nuts, right? It's because you have people who get into these groups and if there were no rules, those groups could overthrow the teachers in a very wrong situation. Right? Things could go very haywire if there were no rules. There are always going to be those people who break the rules, who do things that are illegal and people get hurt and things like that totally can't prevent 100% of the things. I mean, our legal system can prove that to you, right? But there are consequences and there has to be consequences. So when you have rules and people don't follow them, there are natural consequences. Things that happen. Just because your kid sticks a fork in the electrical socket after you've told them 17,000 times that they're not supposed to do that, they're gonna get fried, That's a natural consequence. Hopefully it never happens.

Nikki [00:50:53]:
I'm not advocating for anybody to let their kid do that in the first place, right? But there are natural consequences to some things. But guess what? If you set rules and you set boundaries and people break them, you have the right to set consequences. So if you have a rule for your mother in law that she's not allowed to come to your house without calling first, because lord knows mother in laws can sometimes be a thing and she keeps breaking that and coming over and using a spare key. You didn't know she had to get into your house. There can be consequences for that. Maybe that is one day when you know she's in your house because she's texted you saying what is all this garbage you're buying? There's consequence. Pretty natural. Hey, there's somebody in my house.

Nikki [00:51:47]:
I don't know who it is. Maybe don't go that far. We don't want to be lying to cops, but there's somebody in my house. I did not give consent for that person to be in my house. I would like you to go remove them from my house. That might cause a lot of drama. So be extra for sure that your partner is on your side for that. But there's consequences and you get to choose what they are.

Nikki [00:52:11]:
Maybe you don't talk, maybe you go to minimal contact, you just see them. When there are events for the family. There's plenty of different things. Now, while the focus of rules and boundaries is to stop people from doing things, it is not because you don't care. It is not because you're trying to be selfish. It is because you care about your safety and their safety and communicating that. Because communicating, whether it's talking or writing is a huge thing. That's the goal of it, right? So once your rules are in place, once you're, your boundaries are in place, once you have the consequences and the main person who's causing that rule to be put in place knows that that rule is in place and what the consequences can be, stick to it.

Nikki [00:53:14]:
Communicate. That's the knowing, right? They have to know. You can't just decide today that your mother in law is no longer allowed to come over at all and get mad when she shows up because you never actually said something to her. If nobody knows about your rules or your boundaries, they're gonna cross them because they don't know about them. Do you have to communicate? And that's a hard thing to do sometimes, especially if it's somebody who is creating drama in your life.

Stacy Braga [00:53:48]:
I think too, with being a business owner, setting those boundaries with clients and a lot of it is managing expectations. And so what are the ways that you can manage those expectations and set those boundaries? And maybe it's like your working hours or I've had people say like, hey, can you do this for me, like right now? And it's like, well, actually my schedule is booked for the rest of the week. This is when I can do it for you. And just like setting those boundaries for you, because that's also protecting your time and space and that's protecting your sanity, which is also a part of safety, right? Being able to like not be super overwhelmed. And so that's a lot of what I've been thinking about as I'm listening to you talk about all of these boundaries and rule setting is that managing expectations and being able to communicate them so you can protect your own peace.

Nikki [00:54:39]:
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. But again, it's communicating that if you don't communicate to your customers, your clients, your parents, whoever that needs to know about your boundaries, if it's not listed clearly on your website, or it's not listed clearly on the bottom of your emails or whatever, how you want to be contacted and what hours, then maybe people don't know and they call outside of those hours. Maybe don't get pissy with them and explain. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm gonna fix that information. But can you call back tomorrow during regular business hours or take down their information and say that you'll call them back tomorrow during business hours.

Stacy Braga [00:55:29]:
Exactly. It's hard. It's hard when you're a people pleaser and, like, you have just been, like, raised to help other people and make other people happy. And, like, especially if you're like, in this role of a service provider or if you're doing caretaking for people, it's hard to know what is that boundary and how do I enforce it and how do I stay consistent with enforcing it.

Nikki [00:55:52]:
Yes. And being consistent. So here's a big. A big thing. If you are not consistent with your rules, if you say you. I'm using shoes at the door because it's one of the easiest ways of disrespecting it or respecting it. Like, it's very visual, right? So if you're inconsistent and sometimes it's okay to walk in your house without with shoes on, but sometimes it's not okay. You're confusing people and they're never going to know when is, is this the time I have to do it? What do I do? Right.

Nikki [00:56:31]:
So then they're not going to do anything. They're going to keep their shoes on. And then you get upset that they have their shoes on because this isn't one of those special times. Be consistent and say across the board, if there's a big party, it's outside. You don't come inside, you go around the back through the gate or whatever. Right. Or whatever your rules are, make sure that you have those built in, like, caveats if you need them. If not, if it's a.

Nikki [00:57:03]:
Every single time you come to my house, even if it's for five minutes, you have to take your shoes off, then that's what it is, and people will do that. So we talked about copy and we talked about rules and boundaries. Are there any questions that you have about anything or do you have anything final to say about copy or any of that?

Stacy Braga [00:57:29]:
I would say it is a skill. And if you are showing up and marketing yourself online and you're like, why am I not getting the results? Just being patient with yourself and understanding that, like, it does take time to get good at. There are specific things that you need to learn for it. And yeah, just take it one step at a time. You don't need to do everything that everybody's telling you under the sun. I would just focus on one thing at a time. Okay, sounds good. All right, bye.