From Overwhelmed to Organized: Real Talk About What’s Actually Broken

Fixing isn’t always helping. Nikki and Lindsay explore how emotional triggers like lateness, disorganization, and broken trust reveal deeper issues. From venting to file systems to business risks, this episode dives into what’s really going on beneath everyday frustrations—and what we can do about it.

 

IG: @onwardpsychservices www.onwardpsychservices.com

 

 

nikkis-lounge-2025-03-081902 Lindsay
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Lindsay. I'm a therapist, a speaker, and an author, and, I'm super happy to be here with Nikki today. We've been chatting about all sorts of interesting things, that improve and also sometimes detract from people's quality of life, right?

Some of those things are internal, some of those things are external. One of the things we got curious about when we were chatting before the show was about the idea of fixing and what it means for all of us to be interested in being helpful, and also wanting sometimes to be helped. And also having this awareness that at some point, helping seems to cross, a line into this world of fixing that can become very problematic.

And a lot of us are really good at saying that, right? Oh, haha, I'm a fixer. Probably shouldn't do that, right? But then we sort of struggle to define that in an actionable. On the ground way. My favorite author, Anne Lamont, has something wonderful to say about this. I [00:01:00] believe the quote is fixing is the sunny side of control, which is just fantastic.

It's a million dollar quote right there. You could oodle on that for days and weeks, I think. And it's always struck me as very interesting in my life and in working with, psychotherapy clients. That one of the phenomenons around helping and fixing is this idea of what kind of relief we're trying to get and what we're really trying to get for the other person.

And it becomes kind of convoluted, sometimes the presenting problem is fairly straightforward, somebody has a flat tire and needs a ride to the airport, right? The problem seems fairly straightforward, but what it means to us and to the other person for us to jump in and solve that for them or fix that for them, or always be Johnny on the spot or be the cavalry, every time something is up can become a little more of a philosophical question.

I think about how we see our relationships to other [00:02:00] people and how we define our own value. And also, I. There's a point for many people where fixing is a way of mediating our own anxiety about that other person being okay. Right. We're sort of caretaking in this over the top way because we're fearful that if we don't, this person will have some sort of experience that we don't want them to have.

A lot of times we're really quite gun shy about letting other people we love and care about experience difficulty, especially if they've had some difficulties in the past and we sort of see them as vulnerable or we are worried about their wherewithal or their ability to show up and sort of experience difficulty again.

So fixing gets really interesting for most people. It usually goes way beyond. Like is it a trip to, is it a trip to the airport taking somebody to the airport or is this something else always endlessly interesting to me. 

Speaker 3: So [00:03:00] I've seen this in a couple different ways. You're in that conversation with somebody who wants to vent and you're going, oh no, if you just did it this way, it would be fine.

It would solve the problem. But maybe the person wasn't looking to solve the problem. They just needed. Like most of the time, if I'm yelling about something, it is because I need to vent. I just need to word vomit. I'm not looking for a solution. I am looking to get it out of my head because it stays in my mouth or in my head.

It just, the doom spiral. Right.

Absolutely. You're exercising the 

demon. Yeah. Just externalizing it. 

Yeah. And the people around me know that, which is great because they just laugh at me when I'm doing 

and let the spiral. Yeah. 

She'll get it out of her system. Like she'll run outta gas, they'll laugh, I'll say something and they'll like, or.

Just, I'll go out and I'll go, I hate people. And Kim will go, I'm people. I'm like, shut up. That's without what I meant.[00:04:00] 

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Venting is so interesting too, because many people, as you are describing, wanna kind of cathar it out, dump it, vomit it, whatever, and then they're done and they have a sense of relief and that feels good to them. And sometimes the onlookers or the bystanders. Are distressed by that, right?

And they are seeking to, sort of mediate their own distress by jumping in and being like, Ooh, basically you don't have to vent anymore about this. 'cause I'm gonna solve this for you. I'm gonna give you the answer so you can stop being upset about it because you being upset is upset me and I want this to stop 

Speaker 3: on some level.

Right? So for me, I always thought of it as, you pressure cookers. I actually hate them because of this feature, but 'cause I don't like sound. But have you ever noticed at the end of the pressure cooker, you have to hit the little thing and then it's. [00:05:00] Oh yeah, the vent, the venting, cycle. Yeah.

Vent. Yeah. It makes a whole bunch of noise. There's nothing wrong at all. It's just got a whole bunch of noise that nobody needed to hear, but as soon as it's done, you have whatever you put in there, cooked and ready to go, right? So true. That is a person who is just trying to vet.

There's not an actual problem. They're just releasing all the steam that built up and you know, could be visually coming out of their ears if cartoons. Were more realistic. 

Speaker: It's so true. No, I totally agree. There's this other thing, there's a phenomenon, it's actually called, co rumination in the literature, so to speak.

Lots of research on co rumination and co rumination is what happens when one person is venting and the other person gets on board and they're sort of like one person is going, and then the other person sort of amps them up by, by agreement. Right. You know, it's like I'm so mad about, yeah, you should be and no, and yay.

You know, and it kinda does this number And there's a really interesting world of, people looking into this, [00:06:00] research psychologists about the threshold, at which point venting. Being supported in your vent becomes co rumination and it becomes actually a, destructive force because co rumination becomes something totally other than venting.

And some folks sense this sort of intuitively, and because of that, I think they intervene, what I would call a little early on somebody else's vent. Right? They're like in a bit of a hurry to shut down the vent or solve the problem that they perceive. As causing the vent because they sort of sense that if we get too far down this road, it's gonna escalate in an unhelpful way as opposed to being a letting off of steam.

Mm-hmm. Which is kind of a whole other interesting thing to think about where each individual's threshold is for going oh yeah, this person's venting. That's great. To going like, oh, I think we turned a corner. This is no longer 

Speaker 3: venting. There's a difference between listening to somebody vent and just kind of nodding along and, making sure you, they know you're listening type thing [00:07:00] and cheerleading.

A hundred percent. If you become a cheerleader, it becomes a, oh yeah, yeah. I should be mad. I definitely should be mad. You know, you're gonna turn into a volcano and that's very destructive. Like, everybody's gonna burn. Right. Would you not 

Speaker: want everybody burning? Do you remember the old, bugs Bunny cartoons with Elmer Fudd where he would sing, like, you know, kill the web, kill the web?

You know, everybody's like, nah, nah. And the whole thing is like escalating. Yeah. That's where we gotta like go, time to reevaluate what support looks like because now we're creating a mob and that has not helped a mob of two, and that's not helpful. Yes, true. That's when illegal shenanigans happen.

Totally. Also, it interesting, I think because. How we understand the problem as the outsider makes a big difference, right? So if you and I are sitting somewhere talking, and you go on a event, right? You're venting. And let's just say [00:08:00] you're venting about a flat tire, because that's an easy example, right?

One could perceive the problem. Capital T, capital P, the problem as you have a flat tire. That's one way to perceive the problem. Another way to perceive the problem is that you are frustrated. You are feeling frustrated. Right. And in many cases, the onlooker can't help the person with the problem.

I can't solve your flat tire problem any better than you can. Right. There's a limited set of answers to that. And you've already thought of them all. And I don't have some magic alternative option Q that you haven't thought about tire flat tires because there are only so many, right?

So if we can sometimes I think, switch our focus from, oh, her problem is the flat tire and I can't do anything about that. And that makes me feel fried. And so we go like, oh, the problem is that she's frustrated. I can help with that. By being supportive, right? Mm-hmm. I don't have to solve the tire problem.

I can participate in helping her feel [00:09:00] better, which does not, is not necessarily tied to resolving capital T, capital P the problem, right? Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 3: I think that's really important. So, being Kim, were in nowhere Texas in 2020, just after COVID, it was around that time, right? And we had a tire blowout and you would think that the problem was the tire.

The problem was not the tire because we called whoever we needed to call to get the tow and it was taken care of. The problem for me was I didn't feel safe at the side of the road. I didn't feel safe waiting at the gas station in a neighborhood that I'd never been in before. Obviously we were in nowhere, bill, right?

So like I didn't feel safe and for me, I don't know about anybody else, but for me, because of [00:10:00] everything I've been through, it is extremely important for me to feel safe. So it took me hours to come down off the wall. You know, cat will climb the wall if they possibly can, if they're scared. My anxiety was like on the top of the Eiffel Tower.

Okay. It was gone. 

Speaker 5: Sure. 

Speaker 3: And so for those, you know, until we got into the hotel, actually until we got into the car the next day and were driving away, I was a ball of, oh my God, what's gonna happen next? What's gonna happen next? I don't know what's gonna happen next. I don't feel safe. I don't know where we are, you know, that kind of thing.

Me and Kim talked before we, went to bed and she was like, breathe, we're safe. We're good. We'll figure out what we have to figure out tomorrow. For right now, there's nothing to figure out. We're fine. And her doing that because she knows me [00:11:00] and no, we're not dating like this is a friend, it's just a thing.

But for me that was important because otherwise I wouldn't have gone to bed that night. I would've been too wired and stuff. But because we had that talk and I was able to calm down, come back down off the Eiffel Tower even a little bit. 'cause you know, it didn't fix it, right. We were still kind of stuck, but it brought my anxiety back down enough that I could take my meds, which meant I went to sleep.

Because if I'm too wired, I know I can't take my meds because it's not gonna do anything. So why waste the meds? So, but I got down under that threshold and was like, okay, I can take my meds now. And I went to sleep. Sleeping pills are a wonderful thing. 'cause that was the only way I slept in that hotel.

And so, sometimes the problem isn't the flat tire, it's the situation the person got put into because of the flat tire. [00:12:00] So did they come out in the morning and they're at home? Well, that's not a big deal. They can deal with it. They have to call out of work for sure, or they have to call Uber, whatever.

I don't know where you live. But, it's not that big of a deal. You're still in a safe place. You know where you are. You know, you have that going for you. At least you're gonna be mad for sure, especially if it's 'cause somebody, slashed your tires or something. But you're at least at home.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. It's so important because we're talking about, I think, changing our relationship to the experience by. Asking ourselves some questions about the assumption about what the problem is, right? And we could, that's such a good example. I think another good example is like often, a situation in which somebody feels lonely, 

right?

And they haven't identified that the loneliness is the thing, but they keep pointing at the problem. The problem is, this person canceled on me last minute. [00:13:00] Oh, okay. Like that, and the other person might go like, well, you know, that happens, right? But this person seems very like agitated and angry about that problem.

We can't do anything about somebody canceling lunch on you or canceling an event or something like this, but we can say, oh. So the real thing going on here is that you feel lonely and that you were really looking forward to that thing because doing that thing was going to be a break from that loneliness.

And now as another human, I can definitely show up. I can't reinstate your party that you were supposed to go to. I can't know anything about that. But I can do something about helping you with loneliness because I'm another human right. And I can show up in any one of a number of ways and maybe there is some, down the road step in which we talk about, you know, addressing these conditions that create this feeling, this experience for you as opposed to honing in on the experience or the lack of experience as the problem.

And it, [00:14:00] it really opens up this world of options about how to have a better experience that are not so connected to these externals that we can't control anyway. Right. I can't control whether a party you got invited to got canceled or not, or your lunch got canceled. Nothing anybody can do about that.

Right. But I can definitely help you with loneliness. 

Speaker 3: So I see I am abbu, I have abundance of stuff wrong with me. So it's unique. It's unique for me to have somebody come on and go, yeah, I don't have that one. So this one is one of those things for me that I'm like, get that. So you just did a thing there where you were like, somebody canceled on you.

I have had, people who shouldn't be canceling on me cancel on me at the last minute with stupid excuses. Oh. I just, I can't, whatever, I don't care. I was raised. Kind of strictly to believe you do what you say. [00:15:00] You say what you do, you mean what you say you do what you mean. You know, that kind of thing.

Where if you tell me you're coming to pick me up at two and you call me at one or two oh five and say, oh yeah, I'm not gonna be able to pick you up. I'm going to go into a rage. I'm not gonna beat anybody up, but I sure as heck ain't probably talking to you for a little while because now you've broken my trust.

And here's the thing with my trust, once you've broken it, most of the time it can't be fixed. So just one time. And because normally people do that, they'll be like, oh yeah, I'll be by, I'll pick you up at two and we'll go to lunch. I'm ready at 1 45 to leave. 'cause if you're not 15 minutes early, you're late.

Okay. Then for somebody to just not show up mm-hmm. And not show up, that makes my anxiety, my stomach is a mess. [00:16:00] Like this is stupid. Mm-hmm. And then call and cancel at the last minute, like after the last minute at that. Right. 

Just like I am so done. You just broke trust. And most of the time it's not, I am so sorry.

I was on the way to you and my car burst a tire because Right, right. It's, oh no. I decided that I was gonna go out to lunch with Susie instead of you today and, sorry, but I'm going that way now. 

Speaker: Hmm. Just like rude, inconsiderate. 

Speaker 3: So you've broken my trust. You've been rude and inconsiderate.

You're, not doing what you said you would do. All of those things. Tick little boxes in my brain that go not trustworthy anymore. I'll stop talking to people. I have gotten to the point because look. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I have been through a lot of trauma in my life, and I'm not saying that to be a victim.

Oh, poor, poor, pitiful me. No, I'm saying that because it means that I have a lot of experience at [00:17:00] dealing with that trauma and like the emotions that it brings up, and there are very few things that can break my trust faster. 

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 3: And it is you, if I can't, honestly believe that what you say you're going to do, that's a fundamental trust problem.

Speaker 5: Sure. 

Speaker 3: Fundamental. Like how do you stay friends with people who do not value you enough to do what they say? Yeah. Yeah. And because of, my mom, which I've talked about before on this show, and my older sister who likes to, decide that people are dis ownable just because she feels like it, or because of a stupid argument.

I've learned that it's okay to walk away. I don't have to be mistreated. I don't have to beg for scraps of attention. 

Speaker 5: Oh, for sure. Yeah. 

Speaker 3: So if you don't [00:18:00] want me around, I don't want to be around. Yeah. And what you tell me by saying, oh, I decided to go to lunch with somebody else, I'm not gonna be able to make it.

Okay, bye. 

Speaker 4: Right, right. In that case, you're telling me 

you value somebody else more than you value me, and that means I'm done. I don't have to. 

Speaker: Yeah. In that case, like the problem is not that they canceled the lunch, the problem is that they are unreliable. Or conscientious. Right? So the other direction of like, how do we frame the problem and what is the fix?

Right? Yeah. Because the fix to somebody who, to your point, is just bad at time management or something, or people with little kids are often putting late, right? The fix to that is different than if you kind of pan out and conceptualize the problem as, oh, this person is something, they're either unreliable in general, they're not conscientious, they don't value this relationship the same way I do.

Right. There are a number of possibilities there. [00:19:00] But certainly the way you address that would be different than if you framed the problem as, oh, they're bad at time management. 

Speaker 3: Well, yeah, if it's a friend who's calling me at five after and they're like, look, I am still coming. I know that you've been waiting, 

Speaker: right?

Because I'm waiting. I'm so sorry. Something popped off at work, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 3: But, I'm just now getting the kids in the car. There was, the fight, but, I'll be there. Okay, sure. I can, not like that somebody's gonna be late because that whole, if you're not 15 minutes early, you're late deal.

And being late was never allowed. So, like I can understand that some people didn't have that when they were growing up, and so they may be late and I can get that. It just means I need to adjust my plans with them in the future to make sure I am cognizant of the fact that they're probably going to be late.

Right. I'm not putting the expectation up here when it's supposed to be down here. Right.

Not a walk away, a bull offense. 

It's situation [00:20:00] based. It like you, you can't just say a blanket statement. Oh, if you're late, I'm never gonna talk to you again.

Speaker: Sure. 

Speaker 3: Because it's not as simple. You could, 

Speaker: but it probably doesn't make sense. 

Speaker 3: You could, but you're gonna end up with no friends. It's Right, happen. 

Speaker: We call that, intolerant. 

Yeah. Because somebody's gonna be late. Right. Things happen at some point legitimate things 

happen. 

Speaker 3: So obviously I have this podcast 'cause we're talking on it.

I had the one weirdo. We're not talking about the weirdo, but, most people, if they're late, will message me and be like, I am so sorry. I missed the appointment because I had somebody move, a meeting this week because they had the flu in the house. They kind of da da at the last minute.

Am I mad? No. 'cause they were probably hoping they were gonna feel better and they absolutely did Not 

Speaker 2: sure for the things improvised with. So that perfect sense. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. So the other thing is I have been dealing with time zones [00:21:00] that I don't deal with time zones. Right. Australia, I don't know what time zone.

I don't know that. I know it's tomorrow, like they're sleeping right now or something. But that's all I know. New Zealand, Bri, I don't know where any of these time zones are. I know US time zones and some days that even gets messed up. Okay. And so the software I use for people to set up appointments will tell you your time zone.

Which is great because I don't know it, I don't know how to tell you what time to be here. Like please let somebody else be doing the math on this. Not me. Even if you're Pacific Times, some days, the three behind me, two behind me, I don't even know. It's fine. I'm not needing it right now, but that's the kind of thing I do because it's okay, wait, we have Eastern, we have Central, which is where I'm at.

Then we have Mountain and then we have Pacific. Okay, so it's two hours behind me. [00:22:00] Then there's apparently Hawaii has a time zone. Didn't know that till somebody was on here, on there. So like I've had people miss appointments going, I misunderstood what, when to be here. I get that. Okay, I get that. If you're in Hawaii or

australia or something, right. A different country if you're Eastern time zone. And you didn't know what time to be here,

not so much, right? Not so much. 

Speaker: Not so much at all. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's only a range of, I think, you know, explainable amplifiable Right. Understandable conditions under which people might do something or cause some series of, consequences that are truly an accident.

Or truly, under the category of stuff happens, when life happens. We try and all be, sort of like empathetic to that because we're [00:23:00] all human, we're all having those experiences. And then there is, there's that category of things where you just have to say like, you know.

And even I think with, I don't know if you've experienced this or not, but I think there are some relationships, whatever that means. Whether it's a colleague or a friend or an old friend or a new friend or a barely friend or a pal or a romantic partner, where you get to a point and maybe the pattern is still, somehow it's always not really their fault.

It's not, but it's still a pattern. Mm-hmm. And you kind of go, you know what, okay, you're not doing this on purpose. You're not doing it because you disrespect me or because you're not conscientious. But somehow how I feel about this and the implications for me don't seem to resonate enough with you, for you to do something differently so that this [00:24:00] stops happening.

And I think that's an important category too, because I think there is this category sort of between the two extremes that you and I are talking about, which is one, A, stuff happens and B, willful lack of conscientiousness, right? I think there is a space in between where it is possible that people are not doing something intentionally right?

But they're also not making a preemptive effort to do something differently so that those things don't happen. 

Speaker 3: That is right. That is usually your people who are like, so we're usually late to things, but it is what Fashionably late is fine. It'll be fine. Mm. Chick. If you are late one more time, we won't have a problem because this is not Yeah.

'cause it becomes where you're enabling them. There's some people, there was a video out a while back where this chick was [00:25:00] absolutely bawling because her friend yelled at her because she said she was time blind and she was trying to like, get somebody to give her, special care because she had time blindness and might not be able to do it on time.

I am not gonna enable you, I am not gonna pat you on your head. I don't care what it is. If you're talking about your mental health, if you're talking about time blindness, whatever it is, I'm not gonna baby you. I'm going to tell you. Yeah. Like Kim, I think at this point, most people, if you watch my podcast for more than five minutes, you kind of know I'm gonna say something, right?

Speaker: Yeah. Lateness. Lateness is such an interesting one. I find. I find that one so interesting. Because there's such a pragmatic aspect, right? Like there are things, okay. [00:26:00] Most things are not the rocket launch, right? I think we can agree most things. The like being literally down to the exact second does not matter.

In a like life or death logistical sense. Like it is not the shuttle launch, as my father would say. And even though most things are not the shuttle launch and we know that and we recognize that, it is super interesting to me the way we as individuals all sort of have very different I don't wanna say standards that feels like the wrong word, but maybe threshold or like tolerance for what we do and don't find sort of like excusable or understandable or em amplifiable.

And for me, I will be the first person to say I am. It definitely depends on my mood. And that's awful. Like my, and maybe, no, it's not awful. 

Speaker 3: It's the truth. You're being real. It's true. People will be like, oh no, it doesn't bother me. While [00:27:00] inside, it's absolutely shredding. Their inside anxiety is eating that, their stomach and the panic, the panic is real and they're just, oh, no, it's fine.

No, be real. Tell the person you really upset me. Yeah. And maybe what's so 

Speaker: hard about it too is, and I think this is just so interesting to me. 'cause this is one that to me, has so many different dimensions at play in any given moment, right? So like you could take all the variables that go into, am I gonna be upset about you being late?

Even though, Nikki, I know you'd not be late. You could take all the variables that go into that. Say Lindsay, if this is how it played out, would you be upset? And I could be like, Nope. And mean it. And that would be honest. And you could change one of those variables and the answer would be, yep.

Right. But I couldn't tell you which day that's gonna be. You know, it just kind of depends on what else is going on. And there are days when, I can be like completely zenned out about, hey, I'm like the Big Lebowski. Right? Cool. It's cool. [00:28:00] Fine. Good. Yeah. All right. Great. Groovy. Awesome. 

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. And there are 

Speaker: days where I'm like, woo.

Do you remember the gym teacher from Daria? Do you remember? Do you remember Daria the cartoon? Yes. I actually do you remember the gym teacher who always had the big eyeballs that were like bloodshot cracked? And he always like was like, ah, get that can be me on the other day about the exact same scenario.

And I find that hysterically funny about myself because I can neither say and actually, it's funny, my husband and I have had this like discussion many, many times about how I feel about being on time versus being late and what I've never quite been able to articulate, and this is my fault, not my fault.

It's a reflection of the fact that to articulate it would to me that it is one thing and it's not. It's like a constantly like sort of moving lava lamp of things. So it's very hard to articulate something that's always emotion, right? But there are things that I feel passionately [00:29:00] about being on time for and on time means I to the minute, like I, three minutes late, I will be okay five minutes late I'll start to, my teeth will start to itch.

10 minutes later, I'm gonna cry. That's where my threshold is right now. Yes. But that's not everything. And weirdly, as my husband has pointed out, and he's completely right. Some of the things that I can get the most rattled about being light for are actually the ones that matter, they're the least possible consequences for.

And he's that's funny. That's bananas. And I'm like, I know, but the consequences to me are internal consequences. This is a algorithm of internal consequences, not external consequences, right? If you're late pushing the button on the shuttle launch, there are a lot of external consequences to that, 

Speaker 4: right?

Like, that's a problem. 

Speaker: You got a lot of problems on the external world. But I think the places where I tend to get really rattled, and this is why it [00:30:00] doesn't make sense to other people, is they can't see the internal consequences that I am imagining. Do not take place sort of in, the real material world.

Right? And I think that's super interesting to think about, what bothers us or what bothers some people and not other people, right? Is how people sort of itemize, I don't wanna say prioritize, but itemize the consequences of these things and whether that's internal or external, and whether it lines up with other people's internal and external understandings of what things are consequences and what things aren't.

Right? Like there's a group of people in my life who, if I was late, okay, they wouldn't think twice about it. Truly. I mean, if I was 40 minutes late, they'd think twice about it. But if I was 15 minutes late, they wouldn't think twice about it. And if I was 15 minutes late to them, I would be a disaster because I would be wrapped up in knots on the inside, worried that [00:31:00] they.

Felt like I didn't respect their time that I had kept them waiting. And you can't talk me out of that. It's an internal, it's like an internal thing. That just sticks. And I've reality tested it a million times and I think it's funny because, I dunno, funny is the right word, but at least it's honest.

You know, these are things that come from like our family's origin, right? These wirings about what these sort of internal consequences might be. And the external world can change, but the internal world is living in the same place a lot of the times. 

Speaker 3: So I always find it interesting that doctors offices will say, if you're 10 minutes late to your appointment, you have to make another appointment 

Speaker 4: meantime.

But them 

Speaker 3: sons of suckers can be an hour behind and just make you wait. It's so true. It's so true I don't condone that kind of thing. That no, all you can do is make sure you always make your appointments. 

Speaker: First appointment in the morning or first appointment after lunch. That's the only way to do it.

Gets me so [00:32:00] pissed off. I'm not even joking. But the other thing is, I read a story, actually, I don't know if it's an actual true one 'cause it's supposed to be a Reddit story. So, but this woman was two hours late for her own wedding, pre-wedding dinner thing. What is that called? 

Rehearsal dinner.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And expected everybody to be there waiting on her. Were 

Speaker: they? 

Speaker 3: Well, her parents were to tell her that her fiance was no longer going to get married to her. She didn't understand the big deal. She's always late to things. Can I ask the obvious 

Speaker: question here? Mm-hmm. I don't know if this was addressed in this, but now I'm kind of invested.

Why was she two hours late? Like, I'm really, it didn't 

Speaker 3: say, I think, oh, fail. It wasn't really a addressed because it was, more [00:33:00] along the lines of, she was irresponsible with other people's time. She was, always late to things.

Whatever didn't bother. She'd never been this late to anything, but she took the bad one 

Speaker 4: to be that late too. 

Speaker 3: So bad. And when she walked in, she was upset that nobody waited. Like they should have all still been there. And they had the parents were like, you're an idiot. 

Speaker: That's remarkable.

Speaker 3: And I agreed, and like I said, that may or may not be a true story because it's Reddit and, but nonetheless, it's sort of 

Speaker: an interesting parable to consider. And also I need more information. I'm gonna need you to do a deep dive and go back to that thread. I need you to find it.

I need you to pose this question and be like, people, if this story is made up, then I need somebody to make up this part too. Why was she two hours late? And then I need you to come back to me with information. 'cause I'm on the edge of my seat. I love that. I'm gonna imagine, I'm gonna imagine that it was like the ultimate grand entrance, like right.[00:34:00] 

Do you remember that movie? Do you remember before weddings? In a Funeral with Hugh Grant? I mean it's okay. I don't know. This is not a movie to end the ages. It wasn't. I definitely remember the part where, Kristen Scott Thomas says to Hugh Grant, 'cause remember his character is always really late for everything.

And she sigh and she says. There's a sort of greatness to your lateness. Such a great line.

Yeah. That's one that really gets people, it's an interesting one because everybody's been on both ends of it, right? Everybody's been at least one end of it, not most. Yeah. 

Speaker 3: It's if I'm late, you know something's wrong.

Because if I can help it, I am never late now going to my chiropractor on Tuesdays, there is one light [00:35:00] that if we're not careful, we could end up like backed up.

And the turn lane only lets like a certain amount of cars per, then go. And so we might get caught there long enough to be like a minute late. And even then I'm texting them going, I'm so sorry. We're gonna be late, because, but there was one day where I didn't realize I had their number in my phone and we were running late because of that light.

And they texted us asking if we were okay because I'm never late. And they were like, what's happening? This is not like you. But now I'm just like, we're gonna be late. It's right. 

Speaker: I do the same thing. Yeah. It's important to me. I think it's a sign of respect to just like keep people, you know? I guess that's at the end of the day for me, stuff happens and I can continue to respect you and show you respect for your time by letting you know that I'm aware

that you're [00:36:00] waiting on me. And I appreciate that. And I'm aware of that, and it is kind of funny. I don't know if you ever have this happen, but there are people who are like, that's cool, whatever. I'm not worried about it. And you're like, but I'm telling you. You know? And they're like, do you calm?

I'm not upset about it, but you seem upset about it. Calm down. If I'm not upset about you being late, you don't get to be upset about you being late. You're like, 

Speaker 3: I am. Most people have that idiotic response where they say, oh, breathe. Or just calm down, dude. Do you want me to go nuclear? I can go nuclear.

We're about to go nuclear. You just, you said the wrong thing. Saying Calm down 

Speaker: is basically pushing the red Go nuclear button. They're like, they calm down and go Nuclear are the same button. As a matter of fact, 

Speaker 3: it really is because it is just like, excuse me, what did you say? You know me, you should know better than to say that.

That's so interesting. You don't have fire warning about 

Speaker: But it's to bring it full circle. Right? It's such an [00:37:00] interesting, real life demonstration of like how relative it is to see something as a problem or a not problem that needs fixing or not fixing, right? Like lateness is such a great example of that.

'cause a, we're talking about this world of people, myself included. Yourself included, where if we think we're gonna be late, we're like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. We feel that this is a problem, that we need to notify people that we are aware that there's a problem and we are handling the problem, right?

Mm-hmm. And ironically, on the other end of the spectrum, half those people that were frantically texting to politely notify them we're gonna be late, are like, cool man. I wouldn't have noticed. I'm not worried about it. But you do you right. 

Speaker 3: So for me it's a sign that of respect. Yeah. And I am treating you how I want to be treated.

Exactly. I would want you to tell me if you were late because common courtesy and all that. So I inform you when I'm going to be late.

And so when somebody [00:38:00] goes, it's fine, just calm down. I wanna take an act to their throat because holy cow, why would you say that? Don't tell me to calm down.

Speaker: I just, when that happens to me, I just wish I could be like that. I'm like, oh man, I wish I could feel about this the way you feel about this, but I don't. But why is it always 

Speaker 3: the dunes with the surfer type boys that do that? Like, 

Speaker: that's fine. Oh, that's interesting. Do you think men are generally more okay with that than women?

I think so. Oh, that's, I'm gonna have to think about that. 

Speaker 3: I do. I really do think so. Women, except for, okay, so there's a breed of women. Not breed. Like, we're not like understood dogs or whatever, but there is a group of women who, and I'm not saying this is a bad thing, so please, don't come for me.

But, the ones who have to have every hair in the right place, all the makeup they own on their face, the outfit has to fit their mood for the [00:39:00] day. That kind of thing. Those people are going to be late and they started getting ready four hours before they're late. But they're still late because, 'cause all of that takes time.

And look, I don't know how to do any of that. I have always been the tomboy and not wear, I wearing makeup. Feels like somebody's putting pancakes on my face and I have to just live with it. I just, I can't live with it. It. I don't like feeling all of that go on my face. Can't do it. So I don't do it. It's fine.

Plus I lip and lick and bite my lips all day, five minutes after I put lipstick on. It's gone. Mascara. My eyelashes are too long. So sorry about your luck ladies. Mine. But like if I put mascara on, it makes black lines on my glasses and I can't see anything. And it looks stupid because [00:40:00] black lines, that sounds, 

Speaker: that's, that seems like a good reason not to wear it.

Yeah. 

Speaker 3: So I am not the one to come to for makeup advice or I don't like, this sweater was like 30 bucks. Like I'm not buying expensive. Sorry, it's a hoodie. Kim would be mad at me if I called it a sweater. It's a hoodie, but, she gets irritated with me. I don't know why. It's funny as hell, but I'd be like, yeah, I have my sweatshirt on.

And she's like, that is not a sweatshirt. And I'm like, a hoodie, a 

Speaker: proper nomenclature here. People, proper vocabulary, 

Speaker 3: start calling hoodies, 

Speaker: sweaters. It's the decline of civilization from there on out. It's the beginning of the end, 

Speaker 3: but, so it's, she does it just to get the goat out of me because I'm like, I don't even care, whatever they wanna call it.

And she just dying and laugh. Fine. I have this thing where I can't name people, places or [00:41:00] things because like I'll be talking about a microwave and like the word won't wanna come out of my mouth, so I have to figure out a different way to explain it. And the thing with the buttons that you cook stuff in on the counter is a weird way to say microwave.

Okay. But it 

Speaker 4: conveys the right concept. Like that's what it is. 

Speaker 3: That's my brain. So that type, and it can be guys too, 'cause you know, there's peacocks out there, that do their suits and stuff. And then you have the third one who is the peacock who actually wears makeup.

Speaker: Different category altogether. But don't you think like, I mean there's also just, you're describing people who are late because they are. Doing something right? They're like doing something that feels like a necessary precursor to doing the thing, right? Mm-hmm. And then there's the world of people who just get absorbed in what they're doing, right?

Mm-hmm. They lose track of time and they [00:42:00] just, haven't, I think that there's a lot of potential experiences in that experience, right? There are people who lose track of time, they get into the flow, and either they don't realize that they're prone to that, you know? 'cause if you're prone to that and you have something at 3:00 PM you need to set an alarm for two 30, right?

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: Or there are some people who are like, oh, there's no way I would, you know, get caught up until blank amount of time. And then they do. Right? And that's how that happens. Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. There are ways to get around that, but like you said, if you know you're that way, set an alarm.

But even if you're not that way, there's this thing called a calendar, allegedly. I've heard that allegedly, 

Speaker 4: allegedly. 

Speaker 3: I mean, I wouldn't know who I'm getting on a podcast with every day or at least three days a week if I didn't have my calendar. Right? So I am in my calendar multiple times a day, every day of the week, except for Sunday, because blissfully on Sunday, I don't care what anybody's problem is.

I'm not working 

Speaker 4: good [00:43:00] for you. 

Speaker 3: You do. You I don't care. Go away. I'm not answering my phone, I'm not looking at my calendar. Go away. And then not in a mean way, just a, I don't work on Sundays way. But that, if you're having problems remembering that you, where you know that you've set up something

with somebody, then having a calendar, 

Speaker: all, all of that comes back around to thinking that it's important in the first place.

Right. Even if now we're talking about systems to, to make sure that it happens and. In order to care about a system or a tool, right, or a strategy first, you have to make the agreement with yourself that you think it's important to be someplace on time.

Speaker 3: Well, then it's not even that. It's not about making sure that you're on time. It's making sure that you're aware you have an event. Even if you are an introvert who's going to cancel the day of, you have to remember that there's something to cancel on the day of, right? 

It's [00:44:00] not about only putting anything you deem as important on your calendar.

It's about putting any event on the calendar so that you're seeing it. And if you're, super introverted and you're like, yeah, yeah, no, I'm definitely for sure not gonna do that, but I can't do it today. I have to fake a cold the day of. Right? Yeah. You have to have it on the calendar to be reminded that it's there.

So the calendar be reminded to fake your 

Speaker: cold. 

Speaker 3: Yes.

You know, the calendar is not where you, prioritize it. It's just spit onto the calendar so that hey, there's an event that day. Sure as hell ain't going to it. There's an event that day, right? Yes. Because I can do that. There's all sorts of church events that I could go to and I'm like, oh no, I'm good.

Y'all do you Right. But I might put it on the calendar just so I can say, yeah, I remembered it was that day. I [00:45:00] was so busy, I just, I couldn't break away at that time. I'm so sorry. 

Speaker: But doesn't that still speak to like a concern about conscientiousness? Right? Like if you're conscientious that you need to let people know you're not coming at all.

Speaker 3: Yeah, some people aren't even that. So this, yes, that is me. But if you put it on the, if you at least put it on the calendar and somebody goes, Hey, Jennifer had a party yesterday and you didn't show up, you can go, oh, yeah, I had a conflicting meeting come up by the last minute with, hr.

So I couldn't make it. I did see that on my calendar. It was fine. But I had a conflicting thing because saying that you had a conflicting thing, especially with a hr, if you have a company that has an hr, let's get real. If you work for yourself, you're screwed.

But, you are able to then say, oh yeah, no, HR could, it couldn't tell them I couldn't meet with them. And everybody's gonna go, [00:46:00] oh, yeah. Is everything okay? Do you still have your job? 

Speaker: It's the catchall. It's the catchall for sure. 

Speaker 3: At least having it on the calendar means you're not, like, when your friend comes up to you and goes, why didn't, why weren't you at the thing yesterday?

And you're going, what thing? What are you talking about now that sounds a thousand percent worse than, oh, yeah, no, I wasn't there. Because hr instead of saying, oh, but I didn't even know there was an event you were told, so you should know kind of a thing. I don't know. It's always been way more disrespectful to me if I'm like, yeah, we were supposed to meet at two, and you go, oh, well I don't have that on my calendar.

Oh, so you didn't even consider like talking to me at all. Like you didn't even like bother to remember, right?

That's disrespectful on a whole nother level, [00:47:00] right. So it's putting it on a calendar isn't to prioritize it as, Hey, yes, I'm going to this, or Oh no, I'm not going to this. 'cause if you're not going to it, instead of marking you as busy, just have it be a task or whatever.

And then people can still schedule at that time. And you can be like, I had appointments. I'm so sorry. I don't know what happened. But it did. I mean it did. It 

Speaker 4: happened. Yeah. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. So let's let you know. We can hide behind the, I was busy. Excuse then instead of somebody coming up to you and going, Jessica's super mad at you.

Why man, you weren't at the thing. What thing? 

Speaker: What thing? 

Speaker 3: You know? 

Speaker: And they're like, now she's super, super mad at you. 

Speaker 3: Now she's really pissed. You didn't even remember. Or you know how, okay, so here's one for the guys. [00:48:00] So. If you have anniversaries for your partner, their birthday, that kind of stuff.

If it's on a calendar one that you look at every day, how are you missing an anniversary? You'll know that it's there. So true story. 

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 3: You're not getting the crap beat outta you, probably not physically, just the verbal God. Why can't you ever do anything? Right? You know,

of somebody who has definitely disappointed somebody. So it is all about, at least in my mind, right, if you put everything that comes your way on the calendar, you can either. Miss it or not, you can go, so now you see it's there. Oh yeah, I have that thing, I'm gonna go to that thing. Right? 

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.[00:49:00] 

Speaker 3: But if you don't go, you can either call ahead of time and say, Hey, I'm not feeling well today. Or, Hey, things are really nuts at the office. I'm not gonna be able to leave until after 10:00 PM I'm just not gonna be able to make it to this today. Right. Sure. That beforehand, 

Speaker: conscientious, thoughtful way is to kind of like meet your own needs and bow out.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Or if you decide to do it the other way, you can say after the fact when somebody comes up to you and says, Hey, you missed the thing. You go, yeah, sorry. Emergency meeting with hr. I didn't have time to call anybody. I was gonna, call Jessica, as soon as I finished this thing that I'm doing now, and let her know why I wasn't there.

Kind of a deal, you know? 

Speaker 4: Yep. 

Speaker 3: You've been confronted, now you have to do it. You say something to somebody and you're great. 

Speaker 4: Yep. Yep. 

Speaker 3: So, because an excuse of [00:50:00] saying, I didn't remember there was a thing for me, and that's just stupid. 

Speaker: Yeah. It it sounds like you just didn't care. Yeah. Yeah.

Enough to note it. Yeah.

Speaker 3: So did you have any final words on this topic? 

Speaker: Yeah. I think we're like talking. In a really creative way about what it means to understand what's a problem, right? And how we define problems for ourselves and for other people, or how other people's, not the way other people don't define the problem the same way we do, right?

Like lateness is an interesting one, right? Like some of us define lateness or certain types of lateness is a problem and the other person does [00:51:00] not. And I think we've covered some interesting territory here about what that means in terms of like engaging those problems and like recognizing that it's all very relative, that we don't all see the same thing as the same type of problem.

And that maybe that says something about the relationship or maybe it just says something about our value differences. It's certainly a moving target, isn't it? 

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Especially because everybody has their own ideas of what is right and what is wrong in those areas. Yeah. 

Speaker: Very relative. Very subjective.

Yeah.

Speaker 6: Hey everyone. Thanks for sticking with us. Before we dive into our next topic, I just wanna take a quick moment to remind you two who like this video, subscribe to our channel and hit that notification bell. That way you'll always be the first to know when a new episode drops, and we want to hear from you.

What topics are you most excited about? Drop your thoughts in. The comments below. Your feedback helps us create content that you love. [00:52:00] We've got some exciting stuff coming your way, so don't miss out. Now let's switch gears and jump into our next discussion.

Speaker 3: I listen to a lot of Reddit stories, so I have heard some stuff, but I did hear one where the guy was like, I'm not gonna tell you my name because I have been secretly, hiding inside my company not actually working. Getting raises and stuff like that for years and stuff.

So the, again, I'm not sure if it's real or fake, that's up to other people to decide. That's, I don't care. I just like the stories. But the guy had was in one group, right? And he got switched to this other thing where he was like the head of it, but there was nothing to be the head of. He was supposed to start a new project or whatever, but it never actually, he was never told what project.

And for [00:53:00] something like 10 years or something like that, he was just in the company. He had a desk. He had an office even. But like, he didn't have any work to do. 

Speaker 2: This is like Milton from Office Space when he gets put in the basement. It's like a nightmare. 

Speaker 3: There's nothing to do. He just, it's fine.

He stays invisible and he keeps his paycheck, he gets his yearly raises. It's fine. Especially he gets the yearly raises because they're the self-identifying, quizzes you have to fill out, I guess, at corporate, where it's like you're giving yourself the evaluation, like the self eval part. Yeah.

And then somebody approves it and gives you a bit of a raise and you keep on going with your life. So it's just like that company wasted a lot of money on that person. Not that the person was a waste, but there was no, he wasn't doing anything. So guess kind of he [00:54:00] was, but like. You're supposed to have things to do if you have a job.

So that in, the income that they were giving him was a depletion from the company that was hidden from the own, their own selves because he wasn't doing anything. 

So that's disorganization on a large scale. 

They, he fell through the cracks and he was allowed to stay there because who's gonna make waves when they're still getting raises but not doing anything.

He was like, I ain't, I'm good. I come in, I play on my phone, I'm good. You would be too, can't lie about that. Right. You'd probably be bored to tears, but you'd still do it because why not? Sure. So disorganization can lead to missed opportunities, wasted resources, I. Financial instability. If you're a small business and you're, so disorganized that you can't do stuff. And[00:55:00] 

if you're being competitive in your field, if you are trying to be a leader in your field, how are you going to do that when you don't get all you have no idea what emails came in today. So there are a lot of people who have that number on the corner of their mailbox, that says 17,502 unread emails.

I would say we all have that, but I am, I'm a special little goat in this bear in this space because I decided a while back that the best way for me to stay organized and to I help, I think I have nine clients at the moment. There is no way to stay organized with them emailing me, different tasks they need me to do.

If my mailbox says I have 5,000 emails [00:56:00] because I've missed somebody, I've missed a task. I'm like, 

Speaker: overwhelmed and daunted just thinking about that. 

Speaker 3: Somebody's going to be very upset with me. Sure. If I miss an email that says, Hey, I need you to do this real quick. 

Sure. My people are my people because they're my people and they usually text if I haven't gotten back to them within, did you see my email?

Yep. Gimme a minute. I'm almost done. That way everybody stays on the same thing, but a lot of the times your people are not going. People are. Okay. So I have roofers. I can guarantee you that insurance is not going to call you after you've sent them something because they've sent you back paperwork and you're not doing anything.

Speaker: Yeah. So what kind of systems do you recommend? I mean, do you have systems that you've settled on? 

Speaker 3: So one of the things I do is I go into my [00:57:00] email box every morning, every afternoon, you know, towards the end of the day kind of a thing. I usually, I think it's three times a day. So morning lunch, and just before I'm getting ready to stop to make sure that I don't have anything new that I need to do before I'm done.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 3: And I clear it out. I have 150 billion folders 

Speaker 2: That each of those things go into. Like the mailing list things, they have a folder that they get put into if it's from.

Speaker 3: So morning, noon, and afternoon. But just going in and clearing that out. I'll find that somebody sent me an email at 10 o'clock at night that I didn't see because 10 o'clock at night, I'm gaming.

I am not working or I'm reading before I go to sleep, whatever. I don't care. I'm not working at that point. Sure. So I catch those things and now I'm able to do it. If [00:58:00] you have not been in your email box at least once a day, every day, that's something you need to start doing. Because that five, oh, I hated my email box.

Start, start unsubscribing from stuff. 

Speaker: Do you think, so I think many people aspire to morning midday and late in the day, whatever that is, end of day, close of business, COB, do you think people are doing themselves a disservice if they check it more often? Like, is that becoming actually diminishing return because then you're getting caught up in doing nothing but email management and you're not getting anything else done?

Like, is that why you only do it three times a day? 

Speaker 3: Yes. And then, yes. And the reason for that is you do the work around the emails first thing in the morning. You do the work around the emails in the afternoon, and you do the email around, you do the work around the email and just before you close, right?

Three times a day that you're doing that. [00:59:00] In between those times, you have projects to be working on, you have calls to be making, you have choices that need to be made. Right. But so let's say I make one phone call and go back into my email. What has that done? Right? I'm not getting anything else done except for my emails.

Right? So there is a way to be in there too much unless you get a text from your client that says, Hey, I just emailed you. I need you to do that right away. 

Speaker: Unless it's part of a pertinent project, not just email checking or email management. So you would recommend that people have sort of set times or set zones in which they deal with email and try not to deviate from that.

Try not to stay on top of it the rest of the day because it becomes a distraction. Yeah. From getting anything else done. It could become like a full-time job 

Speaker 3: because you can't, you're gonna look. This morning I checked it and there were 53 emails. If I check it right now, I have two [01:00:00] more by the time we're done with this podcast and I go back and look, I could have 10, right?

What good is it for me to do the two now when I know I'm gonna have to do the 10 later? 

And I'm just sorting them into folders. It doesn't take all that long. Right. Because, that I just noticed those two don't have anything. Hey, do you, 

Speaker: do you address the content and then sort them into folders, or do you sort them into folder.

Speaker 3: I sort into folders. The stuff like if it's a newsletter, I'll read it, put it into a folder that all my newsletters go into. Right. I see. Okay. I've read it, it goes away. Okay. It's usually a very quick process. 'cause I'm it, I'm a quick reader. 

But then you have those, okay. I'm on alignable.

Okay. I don't know if you're on Alignable, but if you get email notifications from Alignable, you will know that is a full-time job dealing with that. 

Speaker 2: So if I went 

Speaker 3: in there every 10 minutes during the week, when all those emails are going out, I'm gonna [01:01:00] have a bunch of alignable things.

It's better to just deal with them at set times because then I can, work on my business, I can work on other people's businesses. I can get social media stuff done, I can get tech stuff done, I can get the things that I need to do, done that have to do with my business, but aren't in my email box.

Speaker: Got it. That seems really important. 'cause I think for me, certainly it's very, two things are easy to get caught up in one. It's easy to get caught up in the idea that if I stay on top of it, I'm on top of it, which I know is not profound. But it feels tempting, right? To not let them accumulate. And also I think if I'm being really, scathingly, reflectively honest, I think checking email is a little bit of an avoidance, strategy.

It's like something to do if there's something else I don't wanna do. 

Speaker 3: Yes, there are more things in this earth than we know of. Yes, [01:02:00] I think it was. So I don't recommend doing it more than three times a day. Some people only need to do it twice a day. I find that I have a lot of newsletters that I'm interested in keeping be, being in the loop of.

So I do have to check at that extra time. It's what works for you and the, your workflow. But going in there once every hour to check emails or just when you're trying to avoid doing something, all that does is create a, oh man, I have to go do that thing. I hope there's email in here. You know, it creates another problem.

You're overstressing yourself about your email. Yeah. And that's not good either. 

Speaker: Yeah. And oftentimes, I think the other thing that happens is that a single email, let alone multiple emails, may then create multiple tasks. Right? So one email may have an ask for two things, and you go do those two things.

[01:03:00] But those two things then have multiple moving parts. Right. And before you know it, it's not that you're managing email, but you're managing the consequences of email in perpetuity, and there's like no end to that. Right. And it's easy to get really distracted at that point. 

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. The other thing is, once you have the task that the person wants, you add it to your little task thing.

And if you don't get to it today, you send them an email and say, Hey, I did get this email, but I'll work on it tomorrow. I didn't get to it today. It's 

Speaker 4: not happening. You can acknowledge priority. 

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. But yes, acknowledge that you got it, because otherwise if you don't do it and you don't acknowledge somebody somewhere's gonna be pissed off that you didn't say anything.

Speaker: Or at the very least, unsure of what's going on. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. And that's, whew. I know that a lot of people don't like to communicate. It's a whole thing for some people, but if you are not communicating with me, I'm gonna ring your neck. Like Bart Simpson used to get his ring neck rang. Okay, well, nobody wants [01:04:00] that, you know?

Yeah, yeah. I need the information, so the more information I have, the better I can help you. So keep giving me information. Tell me what's happening, because if I don't know, I'm going to come bug you and you're not gonna like it. 

Speaker: Yeah, I don't know. This may be like left field, but it also kind of reminds me when you say that, there's a thing in, the Gottman's, the famous relationship therapist, the Gottman's, they have this thing about bids for attention, right?

And bids for attention is all about it. Basically, you know, if somebody goes to High five, you don't leave them hanging like high five them back. Right? And I think there's an element for many of us who are very relational, even though email is very not relational. There's a relational aspect that it's like, Hey, I said something, say something back.

It was meant for attention, you know? And doesn't sound goofy about it. I mean, this sounds goofy when I say it out loud, but I think there is something like for many people, not for everybody, not for Bank of America who just sent you an [01:05:00] auto form, this is not a bid for attention. Right. But there is something nice about a confirmation of receipt, and sometimes I'll say to people.

In messages of any kind, please confirm receipt. I don't wanna see a red message. I want this person to say, like, copy that back to you in two weeks when I'm done with Aruba or whatever, you know? But there's something like very nice to feel like, yes.

Confirmed. I see, I hear noted. Can't do anything with it now. Not doing anything with it now, but I gotcha. You know, you're like, okay, now I can like not think about that anymore. 

Speaker 3: The, so another problem that comes up if you are disorganized is you can lose leads, you can forget to follow up with people. So having a CRM, customer relation management, customer relation management, something like that.

Will help. And that forces you to be very organized because you have to put in the information [01:06:00] and have a due date in there so that you know when to follow up. 

Speaker 4: Yep. 

Speaker 3: I recommend no matter how small your company is, if you work with people or clients or anything that you get a good CRM and use it because it will be life or death to your company if you don't.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, some people can do it with tissue paper, but it's not recommended. 

Speaker: Yeah. That's so interesting. I think. Not at the very least not leaving it to chance. 

I mean, I have what I would call a lofi CRM in the sense that I've created something that functions like that. So, I'll give you an example.

I have a business phone number that, comes through an app called Open Phone, right? And open phone is seamless with my cell phone, but it's a business number. So it functions just like a second phone number on my [01:07:00] phone. So there's like texting, I open the app and there's texts in there.

People can call me on it, they can leave voicemails. The voicemails are transcribed instead, et cetera. So here's the one, thing I've found about open phone. And it may be because I haven't dug deep enough and there's some switch. I could switch and it would not do this. But as far as I can tell, if I open phone and I read a message or I listen to the voicemail, I can mark it as on read.

But never again will it show up in the toolbar of my home screen on my phone. 

So I will forget immediately. There's nothing to remind me to go back and open that app and tell me there's unfinished business in that app, right? That I need to call this person back, that I need to do something with this.

If I open an app, it will show is on red, but the notification that I have a new something will never again for that thing show up on my home screen. So basically it's dead and gone to me. So what I've started doing is the minute I open, [01:08:00] open phone and see that I have a something right and I need to do something about it, I go into my calendar and I immediately make myself an appointment.

On my calendar for the first 15 minute slot I have or whatever amount of time I need. And it says check open phone so that I am prompted to go back and follow up on whatever that thing was, because otherwise it's not gonna happen. I have to have that. Otherwise, two weeks go by and somebody else will text me on open phone and I open it and then I'm like, oh shoot.

Because there's something from two weeks earlier that I failed to do anything about. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. The other thing I would say is make sure that there is scheduled time, maybe right after email towards the end of the day where you are sitting at a desk that you purposely open that anyway. That's such a good idea to do that.

Yeah. And that way you can check to see it's like your, fail safe. Right. That's such a good idea [01:09:00] 

Speaker: to just say I'm gonna basically batch. Things at the end of the day and starting 4:00 PM whatever, first I'm gonna go check email, and then it says on my calendar, it's time blocked, 4 34 45. Check all the other apps that might have junk that I might've missed.

Just as a matter of course, just do it. Because you just can't depend on that stuff. That's a great idea. 

Speaker 3: Depending on your memory in the middle of the day, to remember to set an appointment for yourself is. That's why time blocking is there. Yeah. Is because we never do that, right?

Yes. You never remember. We're like, oh yeah, I'll set time aside for that. It's no big deal. No. Do your time blocking. 

Speaker: It is funny though, when other people look at my calendar and they'll go like, what in blue blazes is that eight minute appointment you have at 3 28? From 3 28 to 3 36? You have some mysterious amalgamation of initials.

It's not even a word. The title of the appointment is a weird amalgamation. And for [01:10:00] me it sounds like check open phones. COOP. Like all these initials that only make sense to me. But yes, you have to have it blocked or it won't 

Speaker 3: happen. 

Yep. Because you can say, oh yeah, I'll do that as soon as I close this app.

And then the phone immediately rings right after that. And now you're on a phone call. Sure you didn't make that calendar thing or you 

Speaker: found a string cheese to eat what? Any combination. In my case, it's usually I found a string cheese, but yes, other things will immediately happen. Right. 

Speaker 3: Okay.

Communication gaps. Again, somebody contacts you and you don't get back to them because A, you forgot to look at open phone or you forgot to go into your email. So now you've got a gap where somebody thinks you're handling something, but you don't know what the crap you're supposed to be looking at 'cause you didn't remember to do the thing.

Speaker 5: Sure. 

Speaker 3: Whatever [01:11:00] the thing is. Right. And so that can cause a problem and it can cause miscommunication to happen. And then you're not doing the project that's supposed to be happening that's due in two weeks until the night before because all of a sudden you open the app and remember that,

to actually see that and go, oh shit, I have that to, I have to make that presentation tomorrow at 9:00 AM Yes, I'm not sleeping tonight. You could also end up doing something twice. Some people, if they don't, make notes in their calendar app or wherever they may decide, oh yeah, I have that presentation to do.

They read an entire presentation that they did two weeks ago because they don't, you don't remember that you made that. I would, but not everybody would. Right? Yes. And so now you've got two of these presentations and you probably realize that you did the [01:12:00] presentation when you go to Save said presentation into the folder that said presentation should be in, and there's already one in there and you're going, oh.

Speaker: So true. Hey, I had a question for you kind of on this subject. Is there a world when it comes to organization and this kind of like losing tracks of losing track of projects and things, material, concrete things? It has occurred to me and I think I might be about to sound like crazy person, but that's okay.

It's all right. It's occurred. So I'm one of these people who, despite my best efforts. I will often save things on my computer to like my desktop because I'm gonna need it five minutes later. I know. I know. Stay with me. Please. Stay with me, Nikki. Breathe. Breathe. Okay. I'll save it to my desktop because I need it five minutes later and I need to not go looking for it.

I need it to be right there. And I want you to know there are not 5 million things on my desktop [01:13:00] because I do go back and delete things and move them and stuff. See, it's getting better. The story's getting better. Don't write me off yet. Don't write me off. And it's occurred to me that I would love to have somebody else that is not me.

Like go through my desktop and make a whole new system for me and like get rid of duplicates and get rid of all those things. Is that just a crazy thing to have somebody else do? Is that just like such a security risk and like nobody can do that for you kind of a thing. 

Speaker 3: So, no, that is something I have done for people.

I have literally had people mail me their computer and then I go in and move everything around and fix it 

Speaker 2: because No kidding people decided for some reason that putting a hundred billion files on their desktop was a good idea. Gotta say, no, don't do that. 

Speaker: No, it doesn't work well. 

Speaker 3: But if you set up folders, 

Speaker: it's [01:14:00] a crime of convenience.

Yes. It's totally a crime of convenience, 

Speaker 3: but there's a way to around that. So, you have a downloads folder and your downloads folder will keep everything from today in. Sure. You, this area for today, yesterday is down here and then down and down and down. Sure. Downloads folder is a valid place to put things for that reason, but, what I do is I have both again.

I have folder set up for everything and I have them pinned. So like I have one, I have an extra documents folder that is literally for documents that I don't know really where to put right now and I'm gonna deal with 'em later. So I put them in there so that they're not on my C drive. 'cause my C drive's kind of full, I game, it's a thing.

Sure. But then I have the folder for a client, the folder for a client, the folder for a client, the folder for my office work and the folder for my podcast stuff. Right. And I have them all [01:15:00] pinned so that when I'm going to save, it's really easy to put it in the correct folder. And I use easy to remember things for the folder names so that I'm not being confused by anything.

So if I'm working on an image for a client because I'm making a Canva print thing or whatever, my first one is, project name type thing. So like convention, one, and then I'll send it to them and they'll go, okay, I like it, but the curse is hurting my eyes. And I'm like, well, you really need to keep learning how to do that, but we'll fix it.

And so we changed that thing. So it becomes 1.2. And then if I finish it and then they go, okay, so we have that one now I need another one just like that for this other one that's happening this other day. So the new [01:16:00] one becomes two and then edits our 0.1, 0.2 point, you know, like that. 

Speaker: So what I hear you saying is you have a very, concrete.

Replicable labeling system. 

That really contributes to the efficacy of the filing system. Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 3: I am not super organized with my big stuff in real life, but my computer has to stay organized because, like I said, I'm working with nine clients. 

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 3: Some of them are doing kind of along the same things 'cause they're within the same company.

But they're doing it differently. 

So they still have to be separated. 

So it's, keeping everybody has a place and has a folder for their stuff and that is, it's important for me to be able to say, okay, this file that I'm working on is for them.

I also have one for all the stock images I've gotten from Adobe. 

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 3: Those stock images go into a folder that are stock images because I can use them. 

In multiple places. 

I also have a folder for AI images [01:17:00] because again, I can probably use that in another place. 

It's a matter of, I don't know, organizing on a computer for me is way different than in real life, because in real life, you put your clothes in the dresser Sure.

But then you have the stuff you hang up and then this and then that. And what about this and what about that Filing for me is very much, who's the client? What's the project? What number are we on? 

Speaker: Do you think that's common? That people, I am thinking about that. That's such an interesting, like I'd never thought about those two things kind of in juxtaposition, like closets versus filing, in vivo things versus electronic things.

But it's so true. I bet most people. Have very different ways of doing that. And it doesn't necessarily carry over, right? Like your closet's hyper organized, but you're, this is not, or vice versa. That's super interesting to think about. I've not thought about that before. 

Speaker 3: I have a lot of physical [01:18:00] limitations because of all of the autoimmune problems that I have.

Hanging up my clothes, like there's repetitive motion and it hurts. 

By the time I'm done, I'm in pain. So it's a stupid thing. 'cause like, you should be able to hang up your own clothes, but when you have arthritis and 90% of your body, it's just painful. 

Speaker: Even the idea though of just like, how do people do drawers?

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Right? 

Speaker: Like, are you a person who believes in folding socks? Do you ball socks or do you not pair them at all? Right. Yeah. There's a million iterations of this. Yeah. 

Speaker 3: It's just kind of interesting. Well, I don't like my stocks to be stretched out. And when you fold them into each other, they stretch out faster.

And I like my stocks to be kind of on the tighter side. 

Speaker: Well, that's a very pragmatic, reason then. That's excellent. 

Speaker 3: I mean, everybody else calls it an excuse, but Okay. 

Speaker 4: Sounds pragmatic to me. 

Speaker 3: So, filing systems, email systems, software systems, all [01:19:00] of that is definitely, stuff that I do.

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: But it's also something that needs to be done. Especially for financial stability, right? If you're not keeping track of your receipts and you own your own business, you're gonna be in trouble. If the IRS is like, Hey, I wanna look at your books. 

Where are your receipts for this? 

Speaker: Yeah. And you may also be missing out on a lot of tax opportunities that you should be availing yourself of.

Speaker 3: Sure. Even if you don't keep the receipt, because once it's logged into QuickBooks, then at least you logged it into QuickBooks. But what if you're not logging it into QuickBooks? And so you should have been keeping that receipt and you lost it. Right? Now you're screwed because there's no proof you did anything really.

You have an Amazon purchase for 150 bucks. Yay. You had a shopping trip. But what's to say that's a business expense. 

If you are too disorganized, even with QuickBooks or any other software, or not software, however you keep track of your money, you [01:20:00] could end up embezzling from your own company and not even realizing you're doing it.

Speaker 2: For sure. 'cause 

Speaker 3: you're just taking money, thinking it's fine, everything's fine. When. You really is not supposed to do that. Right. The other thing is, with all of that, no matter what you're, the way you're communicating in emails, the way you're keeping up with appointments, the way your files are set up so that you're not, losing a file that customer like did with you or the raw video that you edited so that you can redo it.

If somebody totally didn't like what you did, if you're not keeping those things, at least for a little while, you're being irresponsible and is going to affect your employees if you have them and your customers. 

Because your customer's gonna come back to you and be like, Hey, I can't find that.

Cus customers, clients, whoever. No matter how businessy [01:21:00] people are, somebody's gonna lose a file.

I can go back into my files and find it because I have it. Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I will go get that. 

Speaker: And that's such an interesting and important I think, piece that actually happened to me recently.

And now those things are gone and I don't have them, and I'm really disappointed about that. Right. The good news is it wasn't something life shattering consequences by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not a good look. When you're, when your client's like, Hey, can I get a copy of blank blank?

And you're like, ah, no, actually you can't. 'cause I don't know where that is. You're like, mm-hmm. No, that's not a good look. I agree with that. I had recent experience with that. 

Speaker 3: Now just to be on the fair side of things and be transparent and real for a second, my files, things I download for myself.

Not always the best at keeping track of that, which is stupid because it should just be the same. But for some reason my brain is like, this [01:22:00] is mine. It doesn't matter. Put it wherever. 

Speaker: Well, right. It's, it's only gonna bother you. Yeah. It's only problematic for you if something goes sideways. So I think we're all a little bit like that.

Speaker 3: So I have about seven bajillion PDF files. Files and a lot of them are named correctly because I'm not complete heathen. Right. So some of them are named correctly. Others of them are named H-I-J-H-I-J. Because I was just hitting the keyboard. Yes. Not the best thing to do. I had the pharmacy call me, not that I'm very happy about this, I was super pissed.

I'm telling you now. They called me just before, like two minutes before a podcast that I was recording started and they were like. We don't have your Cosentyx card on file. Oh yeah. How'd that happen? I already got two of them this year. [01:23:00] You did not send me $10,000 worth of prescription without being paid.

And I Sure as I don't have the money to be paying that. 

So whatcha talking about You had it, 

you had it? Well, we never had it. Bitch,

I can't do this right now. I have a podcast to go do. So I went into the podcast on Thursday, like to take a minute to calm the hell down because that just ticked me off. So like having an experience like that a hundred percent. Don't wanna do that with any of my clients. 

Speaker 5: Yes. 

Speaker 3: But then I'm after that podcast, I'm in my files and I'm like, I.

I know I have that. I know I have that. Did I save that as a PDF? I'm Might be screwed if I saved that as a PDF because it could be one of those. H Hi jk. 

Speaker 4: One of the h Hi JK 

Speaker: files. I feel like that could be a meme from here and out the h Hi [01:24:00] JK file. 

Speaker 3: So what I ended up doing was going into my snat, which is how I get my screenshots of things.

Speaker 4: Okay. 

Speaker 3: And, it was in there and I was like, save, 

Speaker 2: save.

Speaker 3: Oh, what trip? And then I called the lady, the them back and was like, first of all, the lady this morning was mad because you had tried to reach me before and I didn't answer the number. And I just looked. And if you're trying to get ahold of me, maybe don't do it on a number that says it's fam 

Speaker: Seems like good advice 

Speaker 3: just.

I'm not, I was like, I'm a business owner. I'm not answering the phone. If it says fam 

Speaker 2: I don't need that. I don't have time for that. Right. Don't away. This is not helpful because the lady was like, we've been trying to get ahold of you. It's not a problem. Right. My phone, if it's a normal number, 

Speaker: right [01:25:00] number, right.

You're like, I've been trying to not get gotten ahold of by people marked as spam. So that all that mystery, doesn't it? 

Speaker 3: Well, they finally got the card and then for some reason I was like, are you guys gonna lose this again? And she was like, well, no. I put a parentheses right next to it. Not to delete it, the book decided it was a good idea to delete it in the first place.

Well, so, okay. So having said all 

Speaker: of that, if you were gonna offer one piece, one piece of organization advice that could apply to somebody. Whether they have their own business or they don't, they're just a working person. What is your top piece of organization advice? 

Speaker 3: Have files for everything, whether that's in your email or on your computer.

Have files for stuff. Okay. On your computer. Have a folder that's saving all of those pictures of your receipts, just in case you need them. Mark it [01:26:00] by the year. 

Speaker: Would you extend that advice to say, have actual literal files? Maybe like have a file cabinet if you have, if you're a person with a lot of paper Yeah.

And maybe you're not savvy or interested in scanning and, you know, maybe that's not your jam. Would you recommend people have like a literal filing system? Is that still relevant? 

Speaker 3: Yeah. Not too many people nowadays there's Luddites out there, of course, but most people work on the computer nowadays.

So it's more relevant to have the files online because then you can share them easily. If you have a paper file, some, and you need to share that with somebody, you're gonna have to take the time to scan it all in anyway.

Speaker: Well, let me ask you that, this is question one B then on.

Okay. Important organization tips. If there was one piece of technology, and that can be a piece of hardware or software or like app, what would you suggest people get for broadly construed? For everybody? For organization. 

Speaker 3: For organization? 

I would have to say a CRM. Okay. [01:27:00] There are free ones out there that you can use for any you recommend.

I use go high level, which is kind, it can be kind of expensive, so if you're not, making too much money, it might not be the best. But, as long as you only have to input one address per person. I would say keep KEAP. Okay. Was is pretty good. Great. Or clickup, 

Speaker: something like one of those two.

Okay. So filing system and the CRM are your two top recommendations for everybody?

Speaker 3: It's basically everything in its place. Everything having a place. Mm-hmm. So that you know, you're not, it allows for organization to happen fluidly. You know, it becomes an automatic process once you've done it a bunch, right?

You automatically name your files a certain way, you automatically put them where they belong. You automatically put the new person you're talking to, or all those cards you get [01:28:00] at a networking meeting. You automatically put those into your CRM bonus points. Those persons can now be put on your mailing list, which is easier to do if they're in your CRM.

Speaker: That's some good advice. Very important stuffs. 

Speaker 5: That's good advice. 

Speaker: Do you recommend that people get help with getting organized? 

Speaker 3: Depends on where they are, obviously. I would love to say yes, everybody should have help getting organized. Right. But that depends on are you willing to spend money on it because, okay.

I am not talking about hiring Maureen Condo. I don't like her. Oh, Maureen Condo. You should only have 30 books. Book chick. There's more than 30 books in my bookshelf and if you touch one, I will come at you. Okay. We don't take away Nikki's books. Okay. Marie 

Speaker: Kondo's not coming to your house. 

Speaker 3: So there's, the organization, [01:29:00] people that can come to your house and fix your closet and all that kind of thing.

There's that kind of stuff, 

Speaker: which I've heard, I know some people have done that. And I think sometimes for people who have a hard time getting started, who feel really overwhelmed or daunted mm-hmm. Or just have been avoiding it for so long and it's kind of become this thing. I know those folks can be really, really helpful in terms of getting the ball rolling.

And, in case anybody's worried about the Marie Kondo devotees, they will not make you throw stuff out. Like they won't, they're not gonna tell you what to throw out. If you hire them and then you say to them, I'm not getting rid of anything, but I want you to help me organize everything, they'll go Okay.

Like, they won't, they're not gonna force you to get a dumpster. Just, 

Speaker 3: they'll do whatever you want them to do. Not taking my books. Go away. I am a book dragon. I will set fire to you, but, on the computer for anybody, like if you're, trying to get it set up so that it's a system [01:30:00] that can work for you, having somebody to hold your hand and say, this is how you do it, this is what we're gonna do.

And then once it's all done, you have it all set up and you're good, then that's great. I am, I do that for people. And so yes, hire somebody. There is a caveat to that. If you are a therapist or anybody else who has, professional, cannot read this unless you are me type files on your computer.

You need to be careful about who you're trusting with. Said files because as legal is hail. 

Speaker: Yep, yep. Right. People need to be very mindful of like HIPAA or any of the other privacy parameters that govern certain fields. 

Speaker 3: Yes, sure. Anytime. Anytime you're asking 

Speaker: anybody else to do anything with your stuff.

Speaker 3: So that's the handholding. There would just be kind of like, okay, so what we did here for these files, you do yourself for the files that I'm not allowed to get. 

Speaker: [01:31:00] Right, right. And that's a good reminder too, I think to anybody who might be in one of those fields if you were to have somebody else help you with that.

The onus, the legal onus is on you not, you can't just say to that other person, don't open this file. The legal onus would be on you to have the, those files password protected so that somebody couldn't accidentally, let alone intentionally open them. You can't, give your computer to someone and then they open up a, HIPAA protected files and then you're like, well, I told them not to.

That won't fly you. It's on you to password protect all that and make sure it's absolutely, Fort Knox inaccessible, if you were to hand over a computer that had any kind of confidential client information on it, whatever your client, population is, whatever your line of work, I'm sure that applies to attorneys.

I'm sure there are a number of people that applies to, 

Speaker 3: yeah. So that's kind of that. Other than that, working with somebody can be a benefit because they can give you the things that they know work. [01:32:00] For them and you can go, okay, well I can use this, but maybe I use it a little bit differently because I'm me and I'm different.

Speaker: Right, right, right. Yeah.

Speaker 3: But I don't recommend somebody who is just starting out go all in and pay for somebody to help them organize. I do have a thing where for a hundred bucks I can, if you're just starting out, I can help you kind of get set up a little bit and point you in the right directions as to how to keep it organized as you keep going.

And actually, do that because that's not, a huge expense and it's possible to do that then. But if you're not, it's better to get the advice at the beginning and keep that advice as you grow because it's going to help. Because if I have somebody coming to my computer right now, they're gonna know who my clients are because all those files are out.

Right. There are things in those files. There are stuff they'll know what to do with it. Right. [01:33:00] Whereas if I was less organized and I couldn't do something on my computer and somebody else had to look at it, then they might not know what they were doing. Right. Right. That also applies if you hire a, an assistant or anything else, however you want to call them.

Right. And they're going into your Canva to do whatever with that. Great. Now they have to save it and maybe they're saving it for you, but it's gotta be on an external drive. What do you think my file system looks like in my Google Drive? Awfully familiar to what it looks like on my desktop, except for the ones that I'm working with.

And I take the number off once I'm not working with them, so I can give that number to somebody else. 

Speaker: Okay. That's a, that's really awesome advice. That's some really, news we can all use, I think. Yeah. Do you have, Nikki, do you have any like final, like wrap up words on this topic [01:34:00] of organization and disorganization?

You've covered a lot of like super helpful territory I feel like today. 

Speaker 3: So the big things to look at is to start, you can start small, right? You don't have to today fix your entire filing system into something that, and your closet. 

Speaker: Yeah. And your pantry and your basement. 

Speaker 3: You don't have to do it all today.

You can start slowly doing it correctly to new files and then slowly going back as you have time to organize those older files. Bring them up to your new standards. Right. The file system I use will work for anybody on a Windows computer, not a Mac person. So I'm not quite sure how files work in a Mac.

Maybe the same. So it might still work. 

Speaker 2: Hmm. But, 

Speaker 3: The biggest piece of advice that I can give is to make this, make the tiny footsteps you need to [01:35:00] get organized because it could never hurt you. 

Speaker: Gosh, isn't that the truth? It can only help even a little bit. 2% more organized than you were yesterday will only help you.

It sounds like you're also saying, don't be a slave to the go big or go home mindset. You don't have to overhaul everything. You don't have to reinvent the wheel, you don't have to get a new system. You can do a little bit and a little bit will, will really have a high dividends for you.

Even if it's just a little, don't be this go big or go home kind of mentality that'll keep you stuck. 

Speaker 3: Like I've said before, I have a lot of, autoimmune disorders, which means that if I do that go big or go home thing, I'm gonna be at home for the next week. You're gonna be at home because it's gonna hurt, I'll do it.

'cause you know, my brain is just like, I am not 80. Yeah. I should be able to do these things. Yeah. This should not be this big of a deal until I'm like, I'm going to do it. And then I'm like, I'm gonna do it [01:36:00] all right now. Yeah. So stupid when my brain does that because I know i'm gonna suffer for that.

If you go big, you're gonna go home. Well Nikki, thank you so much for this incredible like, advice about getting organized. I think this has been super helpful and I certainly have a couple things that I can think hard about and start to implement. For sure. I'm excited to try some of what you've suggested today.

That is good. I have enjoyed having you on the podcast.

Speaker: It's been my pleasure. Thank you for having me.